2024 Hawks Offseason Thread: Lottery Bound

[BangHolman]

10 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Whatever you want to think.  It isn't factual, but if you want to think it, go ahead.  Al was a better player in his prime, and there is no reason for OO to keep from getting to that level or close to it.  OO can be another Bam Adebayo.  But let's continue to label him like Al was labeled.  

Bam is much stronger than OO. At the same age, he was ahead of where OO is now.

[JayBirdHawk]

40 minutes ago, KB21 said:

OO can be another Bam Adebayo. 

I hoped he would be, but Bam's offensive versatility far outshines OO. He's also strongerand tougher (and this is not me saying we should trade OO or he can't get to another level).

[Packfill]

37 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Whatever you want to think.  It isn't factual, but if you want to think it, go ahead.  Al was a better player in his prime, and there is no reason for OO to keep from getting to that level or close to it.  OO can be another Bam Adebayo.  But let's continue to label him like Al was labeled.  

I don't think it is an insult to OO to say he is not as good as Al.  That is just a fact.  

I wish OO could be as good as Al or Bam but I just don't see it.  For one thing he does not have, or at least has not to date evidenced that he has, the court vision or passing acumen those guys have.

[KB21]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I hoped he would be, but Bam's offensive versatility far outshines OO. He's also strongerand tougher (and this is not me saying we should trade OO or he can't get to another level).

Bam was developed properly by Spoelstra early in his career.  OO had to deal with Dumb and Dumber for a big part of his first three seasons.  

[JayBirdHawk]

6 minutes ago, Packfill said:

I don't think it is an insult to OO to say he is not as good as Al.  That is just a fact.  

I wish OO could be as good as Al or Bam but I just don't see it.  

Part of that has to do with OO's development since being drafted. Not only in the games he has missed due to injury, but the offseasons he has spent having to rehab vs working on his game. It all adds up. Can't forget 3 coaches as well.

[NBASupes]

8 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Bam was developed properly by Spoelstra early in his career.  OO had to deal with Dumb and Dumber for a big part of his first three seasons.  

Always blaming others. He's been with Quin for 1 in a half and got worse 

[Packfill]

4 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Part of that has to do with OO's development since being drafted. Not only in the games he has missed due to injury, but the offseasons he has spent having to rehab vs working on his game. It all adds up. Can't forget 3 coaches as well.

Not sure I buy what you are selling (and to be clear, this is my personal view and I am not intending to invalidate your position).  OO played 80 games last season and had a full off-season for the first time to work on his game and yet he did not get better.  Without question last season with the experience he received and the health he had coupled with the new better coaching should have been his springboard to a new level and he just did not make that leap.  That to me is very worrisome for his long term outlook.

Happy to be proven wrong.

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, Packfill said:

Not sure I buy what you are selling (and to be clear, this is my personal view and I am not intending to invalidate your position).  OO played 80 games last season and had a full off-season for the first time to work on his game and yet he did not get better.  Without question last season with the experience he received and the health he had coupled with the new better coaching should have been his springboard to a new level and he just did not make that leap.  That to me is very worrisome for his long term outlook.

Happy to be proven wrong.

Changing schemes and coaches I think has a lot to do with that. Instead of just playing instinctual, he's more likely having to process more.  It happens.

I voiced my concerns early in the season, but I'm encouraged by his stats in his starting role though a small sample. There's something there.

And I'll repeat again - he should have started more games this season so the HAWKS could make a more informed decision this offseason.

[KB21]

15 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Always blaming others. He's been with Quin for 1 in a half and got worse 

It's a false statement to say he got worse.

[KB21]

I'll push back even harder and make your eyes bleed if people want to continue this anti-OO narrative.  

[BangHolman]

12 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I'll push back even harder and make your eyes bleed if people want to continue this anti-OO narrative.  

It's not really an anti-OO narrative. It's an anti-OO as a starter realization that should have been made a while ago. Okongwu is a good player that I think we should keep and continue to develop if possible. He's a great 6th man, first big off the bench piece. Ideally, he can play 4/5, especially with a floor spacing center. However, he's not untouchable and trades should be considered if it makes the team better, But if you want to play this woe is me, protect my baby boy OO, they're spreading a false narrative game, you can bleed away.

[kg01]

19 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I'll push back even harder and make your eyes bleed if people want to continue this anti-OO narrative.  

Do it.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

Bam was developed properly by Spoelstra early in his career.  OO had to deal with Dumb and Dumber for a big part of his first three seasons.  

Bam started more games as a 20 year old rookie than OO has started in any season in his 4 years in the NBA.  Dumb and dumber or not he was a more mature and developed player than Bam was after one season under John Calipari (who is hardly an X's and O's savant).  You are getting kind of ridiculous by trying to make it out that OO is Bam 2.0.  Bam has averaged around 19 points, 10 rebounds, 3.5 assists, and 1.2 steals per game the last few years.  Next year I don't think OO passes those numbers in any category.  The one stat where he should outperform Bam is blocks.  

Saying that OO isn't close to prime Horford or to Bam isn't an insult.  Both of those guys are or were really good - among the best in the whole NBA.  It is simply the reality today that OO wouldn't start for most teams let alone make it a hard decision who to start if you are coaching Bam or age 21-33 Horford. 

What is more important is what Snyder can develop OO into going forward.  As I posted earlier this season compared to the Nate / QS season, OO regressed in points, rebounds, steals, and blocks (on a per minute basis and on an absolute basis in most stats) in his first full season under Quin and then ended the season and missed the play-in game with another extended injury absence so he didn't get off to a great start under QS.  

As I hoped for this season, I'll be rooting for OO to seize the starting job next year, be healthy, and get back on the path of progression / improvement in every measure.  I thought he was going to seize the job this season after looking at the lineup numbers and +/- stats from 2022-23.  I thought that would make it obvious to Snyder that he should give OO a shot at starting.  But Snyder decided CC was the better option for 2023-24 and OO injured himself again when he had a chance to start while CC was out.  (Frankly, I hoped he would keep starting, do great, and never give the starting job up).  I'm just not as confident that Snyder is bought in on starting OO as I was coming into last season after seeing his usage under Snyder.  Hopefully that is just a matter of time and development.

I'm not anti-OO.  In fact, getting rid of CC and starting OO is one of the most obvious ways to be able to spend more money on our other players and I think CC limits what Snyder can do on both ends of the floor.  I'd love to see it.  But acknowledging reality isn't being anti-OO.  Snyder used him as a reserve off the bench by choice.  OO will need to keep improving get him to change his mind.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 4/24/2024 at 8:27 AM, JeffS17 said:

OO has been adding range to his offensive game every year, he's switchable on defense, he has excellent defensive instincts, and he seems to want to be here -- why the hell would you guys want to trade him?  Everyone here constantly clamors for a stretch 5 and as soon as we have one that almost developed, we want to trade him?  Not to mention he's elite finishing around the rim, which should not be underrated for a center starting with Trae.  

 

All of the above does not even speak to the fact we have him on a ~$15M/year contract.  He will very likely be one of the best value centers in the league in the next 3 years.  Who would you guys rather have at center for $15M or less?  Holmes? Zubac? Wagner? Adams?  There is no one.  Also, OO didn't get to play in the physical defense second half of the season where he would have been thriving.  Selling on him now would be a huge blunder.

I don't think people want OO to replaced, just to replace him.   

I do think that people want OO replaced, to bring in a much better upgrade at the position.

[KB21]

4 hours ago, BangHolman said:

It's not really an anti-OO narrative. It's an anti-OO as a starter realization that should have been made a while ago. Okongwu is a good player that I think we should keep and continue to develop if possible. He's a great 6th man, first big off the bench piece. Ideally, he can play 4/5, especially with a floor spacing center. However, he's not untouchable and trades should be considered if it makes the team better, But if you want to play this woe is me, protect my baby boy OO, they're spreading a false narrative game, you can bleed away.

Oh I won’t be the one bleeding.  

[KB21]

 

[KB21]

 

[KB21]

 

[cam1218]

One important part of the OO discussion outside of his impact, is his availability. Seems like whenever he has a chance to show he should start, he does well and gets hurt.

[AHF]

13 hours ago, cam1218 said:

One important part of the OO discussion outside of his impact, is his availability. Seems like whenever he has a chance to show he should start, he does well and gets hurt.

There have been a bunch of legit concerns he will need to overcome mentioned but don't seem to get a reaction.  The amount of time he spends injured is definitely one of them.  Again, my expectation for him this year was that he would be more productive than ever and seize the starting job.  Snyder decided he wasn't the man for it during the 2023-24 season and when it looked like he might make a case for it while CC was injured OO again got hurt and missed the rest of the season.  Availability is a very important ability and our frontcourt unfortunately has a track record for repeated and significant injuries (OO, Hunter, and JJ in particular).