How well did we play without Horford?

[bleachkit]

Horford was hurt with those pec injuries and missed quite a bit of time. So now that he's gone maybe it bears looking at how we played without him. Anybody care to do the research?

[thecampster]

In 13-14 season...the Hawks were 17-11 with Horford on the floor, 21-33 without.

in the 11-12 season....the Hawks were 6-4 with Horford on the floor, 38-34 without.

 

Though to be fair, in the 13-14 season we had a ridiculous number of games lost to injury across many players. Millsap missed 7 games, Korver 13, Teague 5, Lou Williams 25, Antic 34, Scott 10, Jenkins 69. At one point we were starting Brand at Center with Ayon backing him up and pretty much Mack the backup SG.  So you can't blame Horford for the 12 games under .500 record.

[Lurker]

17 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Though to be fair, in the 13-14 season we had a ridiculous number of games lost to injury across many players.

That's something I've tried to say. It wasn't just Horford's injury in that season, there was a total mess of injuries across the board for the team. If the Hawks stayed remotely healthy that year, they're not the 8th seed.

Here is what the Hawks record was in 13-14 where they were healthy outside of Horford: 12-6

The Hawks played 59 games without Horford in the lineup. They only had Teague, Korver, Millsap, and Carroll all available to play in 18 of those games. 18! Even when you disregard the Horford games, that's a very poor 30.5% on games in which the starting lineup was all available that year.

So in all, the Hawks had a record of 50-40 in non Horford games when he's been out and they've been otherwise healthy. That translates to 46-36 over a full season.

Things that make you go "hmmm". So maybe the Horford leaving situation isn't as dire as it's being made out by some people?

I know it's an if, but if Howard returns to even just how he played in Houston in 2013-2014, it definitely isn't dire. It just isn't going to lead to more than more of the same for the Hawks.

[pimp]

We made the playoffs twice without him and will make it again.
Both times the majority of Hawksquawk said we were doomed, but we just kept on truckin.
This time we have D12 to replace Horford instead of Zaza, Pero, and  Ayon

[pimp]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

That's something I've tried to say. It wasn't just Horford's injury in that season, there was a total mess of injuries across the board for the team. If the Hawks stayed remotely healthy that year, they're not the 8th seed.

Here is what the Hawks record was in 13-14 where they were healthy outside of Horford: 12-6

The Hawks played 59 games without Horford in the lineup. They only had Teague, Korver, Millsap, and Carroll all available to play in 18 of those games. 18! Even when you disregard the Horford games, that's a very poor 30.5% on games in which the starting lineup was all available that year.

So in all, the Hawks had a record of 50-40 in non Horford games when he's been out and they've been otherwise healthy. That translates to 46-36 over a full season.

Things that make you go "hmmm". So maybe the Horford leaving situation isn't as dire as it's being made out by some people?

I know it's an if, but if Howard returns to even just how he played in Houston in 2013-2014, it definitely isn't dire. It just isn't going to lead to more than more of the same for the Hawks.

I believe in March of the 13-14 season we went through a stretch where 4 out of 5 starters were injured. We ended up losing something like 14 out 15 games.
If not for all the injuries  happening at once, we would have had a much better record.

[BigDog90]

11 minutes ago, pimp said:

We made the playoffs twice without him and will make it again.
Both times the majority of Hawksquawk said we were doomed, but we just kept on truckin.
This time we have D12 to replace Horford instead of Zaza, Pero, and  Ayon

I agree. Hawks have a good system in place. I wonder how it'll change though since Dwight and Al have different skillsets. I really hope Bud doesn't  try to use Dwight the same way he uses Al.

[benhillboy]

I think Kyle spearheaded our best play in the 60 win season.  Besides that, the most proud I've been of Bud's group is pushing Indy to 7 games, without Al.  

His impact was understated and integral.  Still, nothing that cannot be replaced with everyone stepping up a little.  

His defensive awareness and positioning is what I'll miss most.  We pushed Indy to 7 games becuase Pero excelled at it as well but couldn't account for Al's scoring nor could he grab a board.  On the flip side, Al would never jaw face to face with David West.  That's addition by subtracting his mild manner.

He's a very symbiotic player.  Do Josh and Paul have their best years besides someone else?  Probably not.  Al damn sure isn't a 4-time AS without them either.  I expect him to drop off signifigantly in Boston with no standout Bigs.

Edited July 5, 2016 by benhillboy

[Thomas]

The most vivid recent memory for me is not when he was hurt but when he went to the bench against the Cavs and the journeyman Humph came in and we were better. A short snapshot no doubt but very telling because it was on a big stage. 

[ATLSmith]

5 hours ago, BigDog90 said:

I agree. Hawks have a good system in place. I wonder how it'll change though since Dwight and Al have different skillsets. I really hope Bud doesn't  try to use Dwight the same way he uses Al.

Bud won't.  We'll still see a lot of pick and roll but less pick and pop.

I would expect our perimeter players to get more open looks because teams wont be able to leave the paint as much on defense.  In some cases they may need to double-team Howard, which is even better.

[Thomas]

1 hour ago, ATLSmith said:

Bud won't.  We'll still see a lot of pick and roll but less pick and pop.

I would expect our perimeter players to get more open looks because teams wont be able to leave the paint as much on defense.  In some cases they may need to double-team Howard, which is even better.

Absolutely agree. We have got to improve on the big stage clutch threes and then we'll be very good with our balance.

[gsuteke]

Howard is a better player at the position.  We don't need our Center jacking 3s we need him to rebound proficiently.  

[DarnShadyRefs]

7 hours ago, BigDog90 said:

I agree. Hawks have a good system in place. I wonder how it'll change though since Dwight and Al have different skillsets. I How many ppl including the driver can the pontoon boat hold? Also until we get an idea by September via rsvp of the number of guests able to attend, can the contract for the pontoon boat be kept separate since it's more of an option than a necessity? If you are able to do this, when is the latest we need to inform you by if we are going to exercise the option to include the boat?really hope Bud doesn't  try to use Dwight the same way he uses Al.

Bruh it's to late. Have you seen the Twitter video clips of Howard working on his free throws and mid range jumper? I just hope it doesn't affect Dwight physicality on offense. I don't want to see him passing up a favorable matchup in the paint to bail the defender out with a jumper. I'm not sure how I'm going to view bud if Dwight starts becoming finesse next season.

On the other hand, the good side to this is if he adds the jumper to his game he won't be as limited in the playoffs when they clog the paint against him.

Edited July 5, 2016 by DarnShadyRefs

[hazer]

18 minutes ago, DarnShadyRefs said:

Bruh it's to late. Have you seen the Twitter video clips of Howard working on his free throws and mid range jumper? I just hope it doesn't affect Dwight physicality on offense. I don't want to see him passing up a favorable matchup in the paint to bail the defender out with a jumper. I'm not sure how I'm going to view bud if Dwight starts becoming finesse next season.

On the other hand, the good side to this is if he adds the jumper to his game he won't be as limited in the playoffs when they clog the paint against him.

As long as he's never out beyond the arc (no 3s D12!), improved FTs/jumpers from Dwight is a very GOOD thing.

[turnermx]

As long as he's never out beyond the arc (no 3s D12!), improved FTs/jumpers from Dwight is a very GOOD thing.

I saw on Twitter that Dwight is working on FT and midrange. Good stuff hopefully it pays off

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[hazer]

9 minutes ago, turnermx said:

I saw on Twitter that Dwight is working on FT and midrange. Good stuff hopefully it pays off

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If he can get up above 70% FTs, that's a game-changer right there by itself. Hack-a-Dwight is ineffective at that rate. If he's hitting 7-outta-10 and going to the line 8 times a night, there's 8 or 9 points right there depending on whether it's an "and one" or a "shooting 2".

[pimp]

9 minutes ago, turnermx said:

I saw on Twitter that Dwight is working on FT and midrange. Good stuff hopefully it pays off

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LOL, i like that he's trying,  but this only reminds me of Josh Smith every summer. MidRange shawty part deux

It will take an Angels in the outfield situation for Dwight to improve his shooting.

[Plainview1981]

8 hours ago, pimp said:

We made the playoffs twice without him and will make it again.
Both times the majority of Hawksquawk said we were doomed, but we just kept on truckin.
This time we have D12 to replace Horford instead of Zaza, Pero, and  Ayon

You also have to factor in that Al was a better player back then than he is now.

[lethalweapon3]

6 minutes ago, pimp said:

LOL, i like that he's trying,  but this only reminds me of Josh Smith every summer. MidRange shawty part deux

It will take an Angels in the outfield situation for Dwight to improve his shooting.

I was going more for. "The 6th Man"...

~lw3

[Plainview1981]

1 hour ago, DarnShadyRefs said:

Bruh it's to late. Have you seen the Twitter video clips of Howard working on his free throws and mid range jumper? I just hope it doesn't affect Dwight physicality on offense. I don't want to see him passing up a favorable matchup in the paint to bail the defender out with a jumper. I'm not sure how I'm going to view bud if Dwight starts becoming finesse next season.

On the other hand, the good side to this is if he adds the jumper to his game he won't be as limited in the playoffs when they clog the paint against him.

Bud is already trying to soften him even more. I don't understand why Bud wants every single damn player shooting jumpers and three's. He must love for players to play soft. 

Edited July 5, 2016 by Hotlanta1981

[txsting]

LOL, i like that he's trying,  but this only reminds me of Josh Smith every summer. MidRange shawty part deux

It will take an Angels in the outfield situation for Dwight to improve his shooting.

60% is truly all that is necessary, that's 1.2 points per possession if you're playing hack a dwight. We can live with that, and earlier in D12s career he achieved numbers close to that.

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