Official Game Thread: Nets at Hawks

[benhillboy]

41 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He's a great coach. So is Quin. So is Bud. 

He was an ideal assistant but I think the jury is still out on him as a Head.  Gotta see him with a respectable talent group.  This very young group he has now seems to be developing okay including Russell who I can’t believe was averaging 20.  I just hate he bought the fashionable analytic trend with the crazy three point shooting.  Never cared for Jacque Vaughn either.

[NBASupes]

23 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

He was an ideal assistant but I think the jury is still out on him as a Head.  Gotta see him with a respectable talent group.  This very young group he has now seems to be developing okay including Russell who I can’t believe was averaging 20.  I just hate he bought the fashionable analytic trend with the crazy three point shooting.  Never cared for Jacque Vaughn either.

He's doing what he has to do with his personnel. He actually has a couple of guys who can handle starters responsibility on his roster with no issues. This is why Brooklyn is looking much better. This is year two of their rebuild with Kenny. They have build it up well. We are in year 1. I hope to see some similar improvements but I doubt it. We got too many bad contracts and it doesn't seem like we are going to get much better this off-season of than minor improvements within 

[High5]

4 hours ago, StephenHawking said:

What about Prince and Baze? 

Those are guys who have to contribute this season. They should be leading players. I blame them for playing abysmal every game. Prince sucks. Its official. His BB IQ is below a cucumbers. I tell you now he wouldn't even score on a fastbreak if he had a free lane. He'd probably run into an official or fumble it somehow.

Baze sucks Prince sucks Plumlee sucks Ilyasova usually is alright but sucked today so why the hell they blame Dennis, the only guy shooting alright/good splits and not making a dumb play every time he gets the ball in his hands?

I have concerns about Prince, but he's still barely more than a rookie. Tonight was actually his 82nd regular season game and he's found himself in a leading role on a terrible team. He's clearly not ready for that type of responsibility and he gets himself into trouble trying to do too much. The big positive is that he's shooting .418 from 3. Hopefully he can consistently be a ~40% guy and this isn't just an early season hot streak. 

[StephenHawking]

vor 6 Stunden, NBASupes sagte:

This is exactly what I said to Northcyde why Atlanta fans don't like Dennis. Their biggest issue is he can only only handle average NBA player responsibility. Not average NBA starter but player. The bigger problem is outside of Baze, no one has shown consistency to handle for responsibility this season and Baze makes so many inopportune and bad decisions that it hinders the higher level of responsibility he has. This is why we are a terrible team. Not because of coaching or execution, it's because of responsibility handling is the most critical aspect of the NBA for a collective.

I mean if you have a player that can consistently drag that team to Ws your talking about a flat out superstar player. The duties Dennis can handle is to be a good starter on any team. 

And it's not really like you said with Dennis being the product of the players around him. He creates his own most of the time. He would still flourish in Cleveland for example but only because he has more space to operate due to great shooters on his team.

[StephenHawking]

vor 1 Stunde, High5 sagte:

I have concerns about Prince, but he's still barely more than a rookie. Tonight was actually his 82nd regular season game and he's found himself in a leading role on a terrible team. He's clearly not ready for that type of responsibility and he gets himself into trouble trying to do too much. The big positive is that he's shooting .418 from 3. Hopefully he can consistently be a ~40% guy and this isn't just an early season hot streak. 

Yeah the big positive is his 3pointer.

The big negative is that he can't wrap his head around the fact that his game builds from a good 3 pointer. Right now he's pump faking every 3 pointer and tries to do some jelly magic instead. And I'd argue about the fact that his effort is worse than Dennis on D right now.

Actually I felt like Dennis tried a tiny little harder on D in the last games

[StephenHawking]

vor 6 Stunden, Watchman sagte:

Dennis = -19 for 2 nite. What’s not 2 love?  Taking tanking to a new level. Delaney was a+ 2nite. Somebody needs to have a talk with him. 

Basketball isn't a one on one game my guy. If you play minutes with baze who turns it over on every trip and then afterwards with prince in the rotation you don't look good in the plus minus in such games. I mean he played the most minutes. Would be pretty weird if he had a positive or next to positive plus-minus, he?

[Lurker]

6 hours ago, kurupt said:

And with NBA people you mean yourself and Diesel? ;)

By NBA people, I don't mean fans.

I mean executives.

Executives wouldn't want him if he was on the block and wouldn't want him for anything.

That's why he's going to be an Atlanta Hawk through this year and likely next. Everyone would be absolutely shocked and big time disappointed at what his value was in this hypothetical game.

[rd79]

1 minute ago, Lurker said:

By NBA people, I don't mean fans.

I mean executives.

Executives wouldn't want him if he was on the block and wouldn't want him for anything.

That's why he's going to be an Atlanta Hawk through this year and likely next. Everyone would be absolutely shocked and big time disappointed at what his value was in this hypothetical game.

sources?

Edited December 5, 2017 by rd79

[AHF]

8 minutes ago, Lurker said:

By NBA people, I don't mean fans.

I mean executives.

Executives wouldn't want him if he was on the block and wouldn't want him for anything.

That's why he's going to be an Atlanta Hawk through this year and likely next. Everyone would be absolutely shocked and big time disappointed at what his value was in this hypothetical game.

I think he is likely to be kept during that period because he is a 24 year old point guard averaging 20 point on 46% shooting to go with 6.5 apg, 3 rpg, and 1.1 spg and is on a team friendly contract through the 2020-21 season.   

[Watchman]

4 hours ago, StephenHawking said:

Basketball isn't a one on one game my guy. If you play minutes with baze who turns it over on every trip and then afterwards with prince in the rotation you don't look good in the plus minus in such games. I mean he played the most minutes. Would be pretty weird if he had a positive or next to positive plus-minus, he?

I said, "What's not 2 like?"  He is a perfect tanking machine.  I agree that basketball is not a one on one game. The problem is Dennis does not agree.  Dennis, Baze, Prince, and Bembry are all turnover prone, but it is because they are sloppy with the ball, or do not know when to stop over-passing, and shoot the ball.  All the pro-tankers should be pleased with this turn of events, though.

You'd have to ask others on the forum about why they love the +/- stat.  I was just pointing out a glaring statistic.  Baze didn't have as big a negative score as Dennis, nor did Prince last night.  Yet Baze and Prince are getting the flack about it.

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Watchman

[StephenHawking]

vor 3 Stunden, Watchman sagte:

I said, "What's not 2 like?"  He is a perfect tanking machine.  I agree that basketball is not a one on one game. The problem is Dennis does not agree.  Dennis, Baze, Prince, and Bembry are all turnover prone, but it is because they are sloppy with the ball, or do not know when to stop over-passing, and shoot the ball.  All the pro-tankers should be pleased with this turn of events, though.

You'd have to ask others on the forum about why they love the +/- stat.  I was just pointing out a glaring statistic.  Baze didn't have as big a negative score as Dennis, nor did Prince last night.  Yet Baze and Prince are getting the flack about it.

 

Because Dennis plays the biggest amount of minutes. Pretty simple actually. When the whole team sucks you consequently suck too in stats like plus minus. And the irony is glaring in your statement "what's not like" that's why I said it's unfair to criticise Dennis for his plus minus or ridicule the whole thing. 

Dennis does not think it's a game of one on one. You live in the past if you think so. He had many games where shared the ball well. The situation where in can't make him look good to you anyway. 

Edit: just to point out how unwarranted  the criticism is; Dennis had 1 TO which happened on the first or second play of the game.

Edited December 5, 2017 by StephenHawking

[Watchman]

2 hours ago, StephenHawking said:

Because Dennis plays the biggest amount of minutes. Pretty simple actually. When the whole team sucks you consequently suck too in stats like plus minus. And the irony is glaring in your statement "what's not like" that's why I said it's unfair to criticise Dennis for his plus minus or ridicule the whole thing. 

Dennis does not think it's a game of one on one. You live in the past if you think so. He had many games where shared the ball well. The situation where in can't make him look good to you anyway. 

Edit: just to point out how unwarranted  the criticism is; Dennis had 1 TO which happened on the first or second play of the game.

Here's a little help for you.  "What's not to like?" is a compliment. 

My criticism was not based on one game.  He has a higher turnover per minute ratio than Baze, Prince, Taylor and Delaney and they make bucket loads of bad passes.  Not to worry though, Bembry and Plumlee are worse.

[Packfill]

That video of the dude lounging in the first row during last nights game really says alot about the state of this team and season.  So sad!

[rd79]

29 minutes ago, Watchman said:

Here's a little help for you.  "What's not to like?" is a compliment. 

My criticism was not based on one game.  He has a higher turnover per minute ratio than Baze, Prince, Taylor and Delaney and they make bucket loads of bad passes.  Not to worry though, Bembry and Plumlee are worse.

Of course he has, he is the primary ball handler....
Dennis, Baze and Prince are the team leaders in touches and turnovers

player | touches | assists | TOs | A/TO | TO/touch
Dennis | 91.2 | 6.5 | 2.9 | 2.2 | .024
Baze | 52.3 | 3.3 | 2.4 | 1.4 | .046
Prince | 46.7 | 2.3 | 2.3 | 1.0 | .049

If you watch this stats, do you still want to tell me Dennis is the most turnover prone of them?
Baze and Prince turn the ball over double the amount as Dennis does per touch and that without having the playmaking responsibility...

[AHF]

1 hour ago, rd79 said:

Of course he has, he is the primary ball handler....
Dennis, Baze and Prince are the team leaders in touches and turnovers

player | touches | assists | TOs | A/TO | TO/touch
Dennis | 91.2 | 6.5 | 2.9 | 2.2 | .024
Baze | 52.3 | 3.3 | 2.4 | 1.4 | .046
Prince | 46.7 | 2.3 | 2.3 | 1.0 | .049

If you watch this stats, do you still want to tell me Dennis is the most turnover prone of them?
Baze and Prince turn the ball over double the amount as Dennis does per touch and that without having the playmaking responsibility...

This is all true but it remains an area that Dennis needs to keep improving.  He started pretty "hot" on turnovers this season but has backslid the last few weeks towards a number pretty similar to his performance the last few years.  Comparing Dennis to them demonstrates Dennis is much better at ballhandling than either of them but that is such a low bar.  Other PGs are a much better comparison for how good a job he is doing with his ballhandling.  

[rd79]

26 minutes ago, AHF said:

This is all true but it remains an area that Dennis needs to keep improving.  He started pretty "hot" on turnovers this season but has backslid the last few weeks towards a number pretty similar to his performance the last few years.  Comparing Dennis to them demonstrates Dennis is much better at ballhandling than either of them but that is such a low bar.  Other PGs are a much better comparison for how good a job he is doing with his ballhandling.  

True, but nevertheless his +/- (which was discussed here) suffers from his teammates throwing the ball away (and not hitting any shots too often)

Prince was promising in last year's playoffs but at the moment one could see he isn't capable to fill the role he has now. Yes there are positives like his 3 point percentage, but if he starts a drive to the hoop he often has a tunnel vision and isn't able to adjust the play if necessary. In many such situations Dennis was benched in his early years, I hated it, but it was essential for Dennis' development. Prince isn't treated that way (at least not so much) because he already has another role to fill than Dennis in his 2nd year. We will see if that's the way Prince can grow with his tasks or if he develops bad habits due to missing punishment...
 

[Vol4ever]

9 hours ago, AHF said:

I think he is likely to be kept during that period because he is a 24 year old point guard averaging 20 point on 46% shooting to go with 6.5 apg, 3 rpg, and 1.1 spg and is on a team friendly contract through the 2020-21 season.   

He is a gunner.  He is not a point guard.  He is a pint sized shooting guard.  I've seen plenty of them since the 70s.

[StephenHawking]

vor 4 Minuten, Vol4ever sagte:

He is a gunner.  He is not a point guard.  He is a pint sized shooting guard.  I've seen plenty of them since the 70s.

I'd like you to elaborate why he isn't a point guard

[rd79]

1 hour ago, StephenHawking said:

I'd like you to elaborate why he isn't a point guard

Because every PG who isn't CP3 is considered a "selfish non playmaking undersized SG who doesn't make players around him better" by some posters here

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Vol4ever said:

He is a gunner.  He is not a point guard.  He is a pint sized shooting guard.  I've seen plenty of them since the 70s.

He is not in the John Stockton mold of points who look to get someone else their shot to the detriment of their own scoring volume.  More in the Curry, Westbrook, Irving, Lillard, etc. mold of players who can pass and handle the ball but are aggressive seeking their own shots first.  I'd say the entire position has shifted that direction.  A guy like Ricky Rubio (not great shooter who would pass on good shot opportunity to keep moving the ball, great passer) is rare now but used to be a lot more common.