Hiding Trae Defensively is priority going forward...

[bleachkit]

3 minutes ago, JTB said:

Yup it’s weird cause it seems like BK was a head of time when you look back at the roster he put together....Specifically speaking of the switch defense  and positionless basketball he was hoping to get out of the roster .

JJ, Marvin, Josh, Al. All that lengh and athleticism. Team should have been a defensive monster.

[JTB]

2 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

Man defense is still the most used. Switching and zone is used to change the pace, stop a run. The reason Curry and Klay run through so many screens is not because they want a switch, its because they want to gain two steps and space to get a shot off.

yup... man defense is still the most widely used but a lot of teams switch while playing man defense . Not many teams run a zone defense like the mavs.

i only suggested a zone defense to better help trae out on that end. Our other 4 starters has a better chance at actually improving and impacting the defense end. (Well other 4 starters with cam inserted and not huerter)

And no arguing from me on your curry/klay statement but the other reason they run off ball so much is simply because they’re both just extremely good at it . It’s apart of the spurs like offense Kerr brought there and it’s just who the splash bro’s are.

[Buzzard]

Just now, bleachkit said:

JJ, Marvin, Josh, Al. All that lengh and athleticism. Team should have been a defensive monster.

Being athletic and tall does not make you a great defender. Even if you switch, you still end up with a man in front of you to guard. Smoove liked leaving his man to much space or leaving him all together to help. JJ was not quick enough to guard point guards either.

Marvin and Al were our best man defenders; and like I said, you can switch all night long and you still end up having to guard a man.

[JTB]

5 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

This is a fallacy that is romanticized by fans. GSW has never went without a rim protector or two getting 20 - 30 minutes of the 48 minutes available a game.

They switched things up and that is what defense is all about. Play match ups and keep your opponent off balance; do not employ the same strategy for 48 minutes and become predictable.

I would have to go back and look but I’m sure you’re right about that ...so tell me based on my argument in this thread what do you think need to be done moving forward in terms of defensive scheme ?

personally And I know it’s just year 2 but I think we are wasting time on hoping trae gets better on fighting through screens...I’m not insulting our future mvp nor am I sayin he shouldn’t be working hard to improve because of his lack of size and length. By all means Trae should be putting his all in on the defensive end. I just happen to believe trae will forever have to hidden defensively in some type of scheme to maximize our winning chances. On the flip side (the good side) I believe we’ll see instant improvement in hunter and reddish when they share the floor (maybe even huerter) due to dedmon and capela.

 

what are your thoughts on that? And what do you think scheme wise best fits Trae defensively?

[Jdawgflow]

Trae always seems to be standing straight up on D.  He never a seems to be in a good stance.

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, Jdawgflow said:

Trae always seems to be standing straight up on D.  He never a seems to be in a good stance.

He doesn't want to get knee'd in the face.

[KB21]

You have to remember that these kids were never taught how to play defense in AAU ball.  It’s all superstar ball at that level.  Then they go to college, and the college coach doesn’t teach defense.  The true stars tend to not go to programs who are defensive oriented.  The first real exposure to playing defense for most of these kids is in the NBA.

[Buzzard]

5 minutes ago, JTB said:

I would have to go back and look but I’m sure you’re right about that ...so tell me based on my argument in this thread what do you think need to be done moving forward in terms of defensive scheme ?

personally And I know it’s just year 2 but I think we are wasting time on hoping trae gets better on fighting through screens...I’m not insulting our future mvp nor am I sayin he shouldn’t be working hard to improve because of his lack of size and length. By all means Trae should be putting his all in on the defensive end. I just happen to believe trae will forever have to hidden defensively in some type of scheme to maximize our winning chances. On the flip side (the good side) I believe we’ll see instant improvement in hunter and reddish when they share the floor (maybe even huerter) due to dedmon and capela.

 

what are your thoughts on that? And what do you think scheme wise best fits Trae defensively?

We have got to be more basic. Play straight up man most of the time and if Trae or Huerter's guy goes off for 30 then so be it. Last night we let four players score over 20 and that cannot be acceptable.

Play some man, play some zone, and switch some; but man has to be the primary defense and not switching. If we have a rim protector Trae, Huerter, Cam etc can favor one side and guide their man to the rim protector. Give them space as well when its a poor three point shooter like Fultz. In other words, let Fultz try an beat us.

Every game and team is different; but it seems to me we treat every opponent the same by using a switching D 80% or more of the time

[JTB]

3 minutes ago, KB21 said:

You have to remember that these kids were never taught how to play defense in AAU ball.  It’s all superstar ball at that level.  Then they go to college, and the college coach doesn’t teach defense.  The true stars tend to not go to programs who are defensive oriented.  The first real exposure to playing defense for most of these kids is in the NBA.

Good point ....I’m not trying to attack trae like he’s not our best player & I absolutely realize trae isn’t the only problem defensively. I’m just highlighting trae because he’s the focal point of being attacked by the other teams and always will be and for good reason.

What we are currently doing doesn’t do any good for trae or the rest of guys who’s on the court with him. So why not start now and get some schemes  in place sooner than later so that we can really put effort in mastering those schemes to be better defensively.

improvements from trae are needed but regardless of what anyone thinks or want to admit Trae will need to be hidden defensively. .....how LP should go about it I don’t know.

[hawkman]

22 minutes ago, Jdawgflow said:

Trae always seems to be standing straight up on D.  He never a seems to be in a good stance.

He's not a bad defender strictly because of his size. It's not like he's the same size as IT. 6'1" is plenty good enough even with the short wingspan, plus he has good foot speed. His technique is bad which leads to guys blowing right by him. There's absolutely no excuse for him to have guys drive right by him because he's standing straight up and flat footed. Now lack of size/strength does hurt him on screens. Both of his biggest issues on D are fixable. 

[JTB]

5 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

We have got to be more basic. Play straight up man most of the time and if Trae or Huerter's guy goes off for 30 then so be it. Last night we let four players score over 20 and that cannot be acceptable.

Play some man, play some zone, and switch some; but man has to be the primary defense and not switching. If we have a rim protector Trae, Huerter, Cam etc can favor one side and guide their man to the rim protector. Give them space as well when its a poor three point shooter like Fultz. In other words, let Fultz try an beat us.

Every game and team is different; but it seems to me we treat every opponent the same by using a switching D 80% or more of the time

Gotcha I agree with this and I understand your points. I just don’t agree with all of it in how we should go about stopping it or trying to fix it I should say.

but I’ve given my thoughts so I won’t repeat much here. I just think my suggestion of trae occupying a zone area Particularly near the side 3pt area gives him less space to have to deal with and less responsibilities or similar responsibilities from game to game that he can catch on to. But I have to admit you make a great point in saying we can’t throw out the same defense every game.

 

LP has a lot of teaching to do.

[marco102]

3 hours ago, JTB said:

WHY I’m bringing this up today :

Last nights game really got under my skin! Usually I can look past defensive issues with such a young team and look I get it!....Capela wasn’t out there and it’s just season 2 for most these guys including the coaching staff ....but to me at some point we have to start holding the coaching staff and players accountable. The sad part of last nights game was there was more effort defensively than normal and seeing the effort also brought attention to where this team lacks at ....I will be just flat out honest the rotations and zone playing is so pathetic it’s hard to see a major change coming next season on that end! Sorry but I’ve watched other young teams like Memphis and Miami play way better defense with their young guys and they just seem to get things better on that end .....it’s not the end of the world but seeing major top 15 defense improvement for next season seem unrealistic but hey anything is possible.

 

You seemed to have picked the wrong game to get upset about defensive effort.  After the starters played 48 to 50 minutes last game, it seems like your expectations should have been reset.  Trae normally plays better defense in the fourth quarter, but most people don't pay attention to that.  This game I would just call a scheduling loss and keep it moving.  The fact we were competitive was a blessing in itself. 

Trae has shown the ability to play decent defense when he wants.  We just have to give the entire team time.  We now have vets that can communicate the defense and with another off season of strength and condition, less offense workload next year because of the improvement of players around him, I expect we'll see much better defense from Trae.

[JTB]

5 minutes ago, hawkman said:

He's not a bad defender strictly because of his size. It's not like he's the same size as IT. 6'1" is plenty good enough even with the short wingspan, plus he has good foot speed. His technique is bad which leads to guys blowing right by him. There's absolutely no excuse for him to have guys drive right by him because he's standing straight up and flat footed. Now lack of size/strength does hurt him on screens. Both of his biggest issues on D are fixable. 

Ok how do you fix it ? I want to see everyone’s thoughts on this...what’s the scheme you use, etc? 

[Buzzard]

9 minutes ago, JTB said:

Gotcha I agree with this and I understand your points. I just don’t agree with all of it in how we should go about stopping it or trying to fix it I should say.

but I’ve given my thoughts so I won’t repeat much here. I just think my suggestion of trae occupying a zone area Particularly near the side 3pt area gives him less space to have to deal with and less responsibilities or similar responsibilities from game to game that he can catch on to. But I have to admit you make a great point in saying we can’t throw out the same defense every game.

 

LP has a lot of teaching to do.

Fultz is shooting 26.8% from three. He is a player Trae can go under the screen on every time; instead of fighting through it to stay on top. You are praying Fultz shoots the wide open three.

There was no reason to switch Trae off of Fultz last night. None what so ever.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Buzzard

[JTB]

2 minutes ago, marco102 said:

You seemed to have picked the wrong game to get upset about defensive effort.  After the starters played 48 to 50 minutes last game, it seems like your expectations should have been reset.  Trae normally plays better defense in the fourth quarter, but most people don't pay attention to that.  This game I would just call a scheduling loss and keep it moving.  The fact we were competitive was a blessing in itself. 

Trae has shown the ability to play decent defense when he wants.  We just have to give the entire team time.  We now have vets that can communicate the defense and with another off season of strength and condition, less offense workload next year because of the improvement of players around him, I expect we'll see much better defense from Trae.

No see that’s the thing.... the defense effort was there a lot of the times and the effort has been trending up since dedmon stepped foot on the court. 
 

I’m upset because after seeing the effort defensively and the unusual help that was received offensively by the whole team, it really made me realize that the defense has a longer way to go then I originally thought.

but if you really believe we are going to have that much of an improvement running this same scheme then ok...I hope you’re right.

[Sothron]

3 hours ago, JTB said:

Trae can’t improve much from where he is now. Trae can’t get over those screens ...it’s not happening . He don’t have the same kind of attitude defensively as he has offensively.

stick his ass in a corner would be best for him in my opinion.

You can't do this in the NBA. You can do it in college with a 2-3 zone but not in modern NBA where switching is essential to every possession on the court. Trae has to be an average defender at PG level. That's it. He will never, ever be a good defensive player. He doesn't have the IQ or the physical tools for that level.

But average? Yep. He can do that.

[JTB]

8 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

Fultz is shooting 26.8% from three. He is a player Trae can go under the screen on every time; instead of fighting through it to stay on top. You are praying Fultz shoots the wide open three.

There was no reason to switch Trae off of Fultz last night. None what so ever.

Well Fultz bullied him a few times to the basket too which caused help defense to react but I guess that’s just something we live with.

[JTB]

1 minute ago, Sothron said:

You can't do this in the NBA. You can do it in college with a 2-3 zone but not in modern NBA where switching is essential to every possession on the court. Trae has to be an average defender at PG level. That's it. He will never, ever be a good defensive player. He doesn't have the IQ or the physical tools for that level.

But average? Yep. He can do that.

Ok I hope you’re right. I don’t think so unless significant muscle is put on which I doubt happens but I’m praying trae proves me wrong! I have serious doubt in trae on the defensive end very serious doubt.

[Buzzard]

1 minute ago, JTB said:

Well Fultz bullied him a few times to the basket too which caused help defense to react but I guess that’s just something we live with.

Would you rather have Trae on Fultz or some other player who is a better scorer and four or more inches taller? For me its a no brainer. Like I said every team is different; but Fultz with his weak shooting should be treated like a much shorter version of Ben Simmons.

Let Trae give him the space and dare him to shoot it.

[Sothron]

11 minutes ago, JTB said:

Ok I hope you’re right. I don’t think so unless significant muscle is put on which I doubt happens but I’m praying trae proves me wrong! I have serious doubt in trae on the defensive end very serious doubt.

You need realistic expectations. I mean look at Trae. He's not that large, he's not that quick and he lacks any defensive IQ. The one thing he doesn't lack is effort. You can coach that. You can work with that. Trae can be an average defender. That is frankly the only realistic expectation people should have of him.

Today's game so favors offense and freedom of movement that it makes good to great on ball defense almost impossible.