Coronavirus!

[bleachkit]

2 hours ago, High5 said:

You say that like we gave it a great effort and it just didn't work out. We've done less to slow the spread than basically every other country. Not only are people refusing to help themselves and others, but they're actively fighting safety measures. It's insanity. 

So you're against opening schools? A number of respected minds think opening schools is the right call. Among them chief of neurology at Stanford University Dr. Scott Atlas. 

“That’s just completely wrong, and contrary to all the science,” Atlas, now a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, told The Story host Martha MacCallum.

“I’m not sure how many times it has to be said, but the risk to children from this disease and the fatality is nearly zero,” Atlas explained. “The risk of children for a significant illness is far less from the seasonal flu … This is totally antithetical to the data.”

“Obviously, we know this by now, it’s been confirmed all over the world, children rarely transmit the disease to adults,” he continued. “But those are people that obviously either don’t know that data or are refractory to learning it themselves because the facts say otherwise.”

 

[marco102]

42 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

So you're against opening schools? A number of respected minds think opening schools is the right call. Among them chief of neurology at Stanford University Dr. Scott Atlas. 

“That’s just completely wrong, and contrary to all the science,” Atlas, now a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, told The Story host Martha MacCallum.

“I’m not sure how many times it has to be said, but the risk to children from this disease and the fatality is nearly zero,” Atlas explained. “The risk of children for a significant illness is far less from the seasonal flu … This is totally antithetical to the data.”

“Obviously, we know this by now, it’s been confirmed all over the world, children rarely transmit the disease to adults,” he continued. “But those are people that obviously either don’t know that data or are refractory to learning it themselves because the facts say otherwise.”

 

Can you really compare the US to other countries though?  Most of those countries had the vrius way more under control before they opened up.  We are darn near back to March levels of infection if not worst.  

Also, most people understand that kids may not die.  However, do we know the long term effects of getting covid on children? I've seen some conflicting evidence regarding kids spreading the virus.  It doesn't seem like it matters if you are young or not.  Some people don't spread the virus and others are super spreaders. Doesn't seem to be an age thing there.  

 Isreal had the virus way more under control then the below

https://www.thedailybeast.com/israeli-data-show-school-openings-were-a-disaster-that-wiped-out-lockdown-gains.  

I think the major problem with opening up the schools is we don't have a plan.  Everyone school system for themselves.  At the federal level, a minimum should be providing the funding for every school to meet the CDC guidelines to open or to improve online options. What happens when a teacher, student, or school employee gets COVID?  Does everyone quarantine?  How long? Communication methods? What happens when a teacher or student dies?  What are those protocols.   

It's really a tough. We have an option to do online or in person for the first semester in Gwinnett. We chose online. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by marco102

[Thomas]

10 hours ago, High5 said:

You say that like we gave it a great effort and it just didn't work out. We've done less to slow the spread than basically every other country. Not only are people refusing to help themselves and others, but they're actively fighting safety measures. It's insanity. 

Remembering when Italy's situation looked like an impossible thing as to how many and how fast it was happening but we have made them look like a mole hill because we have such a large population to start with. And the virus is picking up speed again. Our neighbor Florida is and has been losing over one hundred lives a day.

[bleachkit]

6 hours ago, marco102 said:

Can you really compare the US to other countries though?  Most of those countries had the vrius way more under control before they opened up.  We are darn near back to March levels of infection if not worst.  

Also, most people understand that kids may not die.  However, do we know the long term effects of getting covid on children? I've seen some conflicting evidence regarding kids spreading the virus.  It doesn't seem like it matters if you are young or not.  Some people don't spread the virus and others are super spreaders. Doesn't seem to be an age thing there.  

 Isreal had the virus way more under control then the below

https://www.thedailybeast.com/israeli-data-show-school-openings-were-a-disaster-that-wiped-out-lockdown-gains.  

I think the major problem with opening up the schools is we don't have a plan.  Everyone school system for themselves.  At the federal level, a minimum should be providing the funding for every school to meet the CDC guidelines to open or to improve online options. What happens when a teacher, student, or school employee gets COVID?  Does everyone quarantine?  How long? Communication methods? What happens when a teacher or student dies?  What are those protocols.   

It's really a tough. We have an option to do online or in person for the first semester in Gwinnett. We chose online. 

If you are erring the side of caution, then close the schools. If you are worried about kids giving Covid-19 to their grandma or their elderly teacher then close the schools. But if the question is are children getting sick in numbers to be a concern for a public safety, the answer is no. Hospitalizations and deaths among children are astonishingly low. Canceling schools for a pandemic that is not affecting children is tough pill to swallow for me. It's really hard on working class families especially, but it is what it is I guess.

[Thomas]

An NFL player's family member went to lunch with a friend a bit back and now seven immediate family members, two inlaws and the lunch friend all have it or have had it. One was hospitalized and recovered. It doesn't care if you are an athlete, older person or a child. 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/a-lunch-led-to-rams-andrew-whitworth-and-his-family-getting-coronavirus-i-realized-how-contagious-this-really-is-210618586.html 

[bleachkit]

42 minutes ago, Thomas said:

An NFL player's family member went to lunch with a friend a bit back and now seven immediate family members, two inlaws and the lunch friend all have it or have had it. One was hospitalized and recovered. It doesn't care if you are an athlete, older person or a child. 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/a-lunch-led-to-rams-andrew-whitworth-and-his-family-getting-coronavirus-i-realized-how-contagious-this-really-is-210618586.html 

It term of outcomes, yes it does care very much whether you are an older person or a child. Why are you saying something that is demonstrably and empirically false? Age is the single most reliable statistical predictor of outcomes. With children and the elderly having a difference in risk that is orders of magnitude apart. Even in the article you are referencing, Whitworth and the children are fine. It was his older father-in-law that was hospitalized with Covid-19. 

[Thomas]

1 hour ago, bleachkit said:

It term of outcomes, yes it does care very much whether you are an older person or a child. Why are you saying something that is demonstrably and empirically false? Age is the single most reliable statistical predictor of outcomes. With children and the elderly having a difference in risk that is orders of magnitude apart. Even in the article you are referencing, Whitworth and the children are fine. It was his older father-in-law that was hospitalized with Covid-19. 

I said nothing false. The article is about how quickly and easily it can spread. The football player's family is his up close example. My statement was that the virus doesn't care about age as per his situation. It spreads to and through anyone at any age. 

[bleachkit]

2 minutes ago, Thomas said:

I said nothing false. The article is about how quickly and easily it can spread. The football player's family is his up close example. My statement was that the virus doesn't care about age as per his situation. It spreads to and through anyone at any age. 

Yes it's very contagious. There is a school of thought out there to allow the virus to infect everyone, in hopes of establishing herd immunity. I don't agree with that approach, but it could be argued shelter in place orders, social distancing, etc. while mitigating the pandemic, are also prolonging it. 

[Thomas]

14 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Yes it's very contagious. There is a school of thought out there to allow the virus to infect everyone, in hopes of establishing herd immunity. I don't agree with that approach, but it could be argued shelter in place orders, social distancing, etc. while mitigating the pandemic, are also prolonging it. 

The NFL guy was referring to his specific situation.. He was taking the how fast it "hit" his family angle, nine members plus a friend from one lunch between two people. He was stunned I believe. They apparently are quite lucky only one was hospitalized out of it. Still not seeing why you referred to me as a liar.

[marco102]

2 hours ago, bleachkit said:

If you are erring the side of caution, then close the schools. If you are worried about kids giving Covid-19 to their grandma or their elderly teacher then close the schools. But if the question is are children getting sick in numbers to be a concern for a public safety, the answer is no. Hospitalizations and deaths among children are astonishingly low. Canceling schools for a pandemic that is not affecting children is tough pill to swallow for me. It's really hard on working class families especially, but it is what it is I guess.

I think I may get your point here, but at the end of the day we come to the same conclusion? Kids aren't the only ones at schools. I'm assuming you are not a parent? Because some parents don't want their kids getting a disease that they don't know the long term effects. What if it increases heart attacks, strokes,  by 80% when kids are in there 20s and 30s. Will you send your kid to school for that?  Most likely no. My point was when it comes to kids they may not be hospitalized and die, but that doesn't mean there arent other complications in children.

Yes, there are other factors to consider. I think every parent should have an option and so should teachers and employees. The government can bail out the rich corporations, farmers, prop up the stock market, yet won't seem to bail out these working class people.

[Thomas]

3 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Yes, there are other factors to consider. I think every parent should have an option and so should teachers and employees. The government can bail out the rich corporations, farmers, prop up the stock market, yet won't seem to bail out these working class people.

Very well stated. Been thinking along those lines in general. Never imagined a situation where the weight of questions such as these are so incredibly critical to everyone, globally as well.

[bleachkit]

6 minutes ago, Thomas said:

Which is not what the NFL guy was referring to. He was taking the how fast it hit his family angle. He was stunned I believe. They apparently are quite lucky only one was hospitalized. Still not seeing why you referred to me as a liar.

Maybe I misinterpreted your post. I'm speaking about outcomes. Saying no one is safe from Covid-19, while perhaps technically true, it should always be noted the enormous difference in outcomes based on age. By enormous, I mean a Grand Canyon sized chasm, the distance from here to Alpha Centauri, any other metaphor of your choosing. 

[marco102]

4 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Maybe I misinterpreted your post. I'm speaking about outcomes. Saying no one is safe from Covid-19, while perhaps technically true, it should always be noted the enormous difference in outcomes based on age. By enormous, I mean a Grand Canyon sized chasm, the distance from here to Alpha Centauri, any other metaphor of your choosing. 

I get this. I really do, but it's not enormous when your family is one those numbers.

[bleachkit]

21 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I think I may get your point here, but at the end of the day we come to the same conclusion? Kids aren't the only ones at schools. I'm assuming you are not a parent? Because some parents don't want their kids getting a disease that they don't know the long term effects. What if it increases heart attacks, strokes,  by 80% when kids are in there 20s and 30s. Will you send your kid to school for that?  Most likely no. My point was when it comes to kids they may not be hospitalized and die, but that doesn't mean there arent other complications in children.

Yes, there are other factors to consider. I think every parent should have an option and so should teachers and employees. The government can bail out the rich corporations, farmers, prop up the stock market, yet won't seem to bail out these working class people.

I'm all for bailing out the working class. Even hard core fiscal conservatives aren't making the deficit argument, that ship has sailed. So yes, even though children appear to not be affected, long term problems are still unknown. That's a fair point. But we wont know that for a long time. So what's our end game here? Are we looking at another year, even years without school? I'm not sure that's tenable.

[marco102]

12 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

I'm all for bailing out the working class. Even hard core fiscal conservatives aren't making the deficit argument, that ship has sailed. So yes, even though children appear to not be affected, long term problems are still unknown. That's a fair point. But we wont know that for a long time. So what's our end game here? Are we looking at another year, even years without school? I'm not sure that's tenable.

Nope.  Government needs to get off their ass, spend, build, and improve infrasctructure to improve safety at schools.   This could be done while we are arguing about opening up schools at the moment, but I don't believe it has. 

There's also online learning options too.  I'm not for shutting down schools, but I'm like do something to improve the safety and well being of everyone before going back.  Just don't say they can't be online completely, because of the administrations failings and you have to open up on time.

If schools were so important, they should have been working on a plan in March to get schools back open on time, but they thought it would be completely gone by summer.  Either way, PLAN for if it wasn't.  

I don't think schools should be closed forever.  I just think the government should build up PPE, hire more younger employees to assist the schools, improve school buidlings,  offer hazard pay to all employees, not just teachers, etc. before demanding everyone open up. If they did those things, a lot of parents would feel more comfortable sending their kids to school.  While they are at it, spend on after school programs to help working class families if they want these parents to get back into the work force.

Edited July 18, 2020 by marco102

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, bleachkit said:

Yes it's very contagious. There is a school of thought out there to allow the virus to infect everyone, in hopes of establishing herd immunity. I don't agree with that approach, but it could be argued shelter in place orders, social distancing, etc. while mitigating the pandemic, are also prolonging it. 

You say that as if those in charge and the general populous gave it their 'best effort' with initial mitigation. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 7/16/2020 at 10:19 AM, High5 said:

Walmart is finally requiring masks. Probably the next best thing to a country-wide mandate. I feel bad for the employees they expect to enforce it, though. 

They will literally have to have the police assigned at the entrance, in order to combat unruly customers.

[marco102]

Just now, TheNorthCydeRises said:

They will literally have to have the police assigned at the entrance, in order to combat unruly customers.

I didn't know which emoji to go with.  All apply.  It's sad, funny, confusing, and thank you for telling the truth.

[AHF]

34 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

They will literally have to have the police assigned at the entrance, in order to combat unruly customers.

As long as they keep getting mixed messages about whether it is right or wrong, this will remain the case.  Other countries had a coordinated, centralized response that led to pretty uniform mask wearing and got the virus under control. It is like our leaders want this thing to continue and escalate.

[AHF]

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-nyt-older-children-covid-spread-study-20200718-5q5eo4ylibcwppd2haxwvdp6re-story.html

Quote

In the heated debate over reopening schools, one burning question has been whether and how efficiently children can spread the virus to others.

A large new study from South Korea offers an answer: Children younger than age 10 transmit to others much less often than adults do, but the risk is not zero. And those between the ages of 10-19 can spread the virus at least as well as adults do.

“I fear that there has been this sense that kids just won’t get infected or don’t get infected in the same way as adults and that, therefore, they’re almost like a bubbled population,” said Michael Osterholm, an infectious diseases expert at the University of Minnesota.

“There will be transmission,” Osterholm said. “What we have to do is accept that now and include that in our plans.”

Several studies from Europe and Asia have suggested that young children are less likely to get infected and to spread the virus. But most of those studies were small and flawed, said Dr. Ashish Jha, director of the Harvard Global Health Institute.

The new study “is very carefully done, it’s systematic and looks at a very large population,” Jha said. “It’s one of the best studies we’ve had to date on this issue.”

Other experts also praised the scale and rigor of the analysis. South Korean researchers identified 5,706 people who were the first to report COVID-19 symptoms in their households between Jan. 20 and March 27, when schools were closed, and then traced the 59,073 contacts of these “index cases.” They tested all of the household contacts of each patient, regardless of symptoms, but only tested symptomatic contacts outside the household.

***

Children under age 10 were roughly half as likely as adults to spread the virus to others, consistent with other studies. That may be because children generally exhale less air — and therefore less virus-laden air — or because they exhale that air closer to the ground, making it less likely that adults would breathe it in.

***

The study is more worrisome for children in middle and high school. This group was even more likely to infect others than adults were, the study found. But some experts said that finding may be a fluke or may stem from the children’s behaviors.

These older children are frequently as big as adults, and yet may have some of the same unhygienic habits as young children do. They may also have been more likely than the younger children to socialize with their peers within the high-rise complexes in South Korea.

“We can speculate all day about this, but we just don’t know,” Osterholm said. “The bottom line message is: There’s going to be transmission.”