Official Game Thread: Hawks at Knicks

[Atlantaholic]

23 minutes ago, marco102 said:

That was the entire point of @kg01's original post.  IF you put Randle in an MVP conversation, then you should at a minimum put Trae in too.  Then you came in with your Randle stats, which by the way, he's been fantastic.  He's not MVP worthy nor is Trae. 

I just don't get why you are aren't agreeing with that point. 

I disagree with the notion Trae has played on the level of Randle, 100%.

I don't disagree neither is an MVP candidate, already stated as much several times.

Truth is Trae has had a very up and down season, hasn't had as good of a season as last year overall, After the coaching change the team has taken off yet Trae's splits have been worse...both in his counting stats and scoring efficiency... obviously some of it I think is he has been playing through some nagging injuries, and also is  adjusting playing next to Bogi who is taking some of his volume away. So it's not like I'm down on Trae, he should have been an all star hands down in favor of Ben Simons. On the other hand though Randle has carried that team almost single handedly, leads them in basically every category outside of blocks, which I'm not sure how often that's happened in the NBA, but would wager you can count the players who have done that on one hand. Of course Thibs demands a TON of credit for the way they are playing, but without Randle you have a team of Elfriid Payton, Rj Barret, Bulock, Taj Gibson and Noel, with Rose of the bench which I'm pretty sure doesn't win 20 games this year. I would say overall Randle has been a top 10 player this year, right up there Capela. Trae is around top 25 maybe top 20. If we are talking strictly offense than obviously Trae is still a top 10 player even with his relative struggles this year. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Atlantaholic

[bleachkit]

3 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

I disagree with the notion Trae has played on the level of Randle, 100%.

I don't disagree neither is an MVP candidate, already stated as much several times.

Truth is Trae has had a very up and down season, hasn't had as good of a season as last year overall, After the coaching change the team has taken off yet Trae's splits have been worse...both in his counting stats and scoring efficiency... obviously some of it I think is he has been playing through some nagging injuries, and also is  adjusting playing next to Bogi who is taking some of his volume away. So it's not like I'm down on Trae, he should have been an all star hands down in favor of Ben Simons. On the other hand though Randle has carried that team almost single handedly, leads them in basically every category outside of blocks, which I'm not sure how often that's happened in the NBA, but would wager you can count the players who have done that on one hand. Of course Thibs demands a TON of credit for the way they are playing, but without Randle you have a team of Elfriid Payton, Rj Barret, Bulock, Taj Gibson and Noel, with Rose of the bench which I'm pretty sure doesn't win 20 games this year. I would say overall Randle has been a top 10 player this year, right up there Capela. Trae is around top 25 maybe top 20. If we are talking strictly offense than obviously Trae is still a top 10 player even with his relative struggles this year. 

Fair and objective argument. Well done.

[marco102]

20 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

I disagree with the notion Trae has played on the level of Randle, 100%.

I don't disagree neither is an MVP candidate, already stated as much several times.

Truth is Trae has had a very up and down season, hasn't had as good of a season as last year overall, After the coaching change the team has taken off yet Trae's splits have been worse...both in his counting stats and scoring efficiency... obviously some of it I think is he has been playing through some nagging injuries, and also is  adjusting playing next to Bogi who is taking some of his volume away. So it's not like I'm down on Trae, he should have been an all star hands down in favor of Ben Simons. On the other hand though Randle has carried that team almost single handedly, leads them in basically every category outside of blocks, which I'm not sure how often that's happened in the NBA, but would wager you can count the players who have done that on one hand. Of course Thibs demands a TON of credit for the way they are playing, but without Randle you have a team of Elfriid Payton, Rj Barret, Bulock, Taj Gibson and Noel, with Rose of the bench which I'm pretty sure doesn't win 20 games this year. I would say overall Randle has been a top 10 player this year, right up there Capela. Trae is around top 25 maybe top 20. If we are talking strictly offense than obviously Trae is still a top 10 player even with his relative struggles this year. 

I can get behind this.  

I think from an offensive standpoint, Trae is playing better this year than last year. He's just not hitting his shots. His turnovers are down and shot selection much improved.  I don't know what the hell has happened to his three point shot or floater, most likely injury and not practicing as much, but I'll be glad when he gets it back. 

[Atlantaholic]

14 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I can get behind this.  

I think from an offensive standpoint, Trae is playing better this year than last year. He's just not hitting his shots. His turnovers are down and shot selection much improved.  I don't know what the hell has happened to his three point shot or floater, most likely injury and not practicing as much, but I'll be glad when he gets it back. 

I agree he is playing better from the neck up, but for whatever reason he just isn't making the shots he was making last year. If he was hitting those shots like last season then I definitely think you are talking about an absolutely elite offensive season from Trae, better than last year's for sure and definitely then you are talking about a top 10 player, even despite his defense. But we can't just ignore he hasn't been making shots, and while his turnovers ARE down and that's great, I still think that's a big area of improvement for him. Overall I feel Trae's potential is through the roof, much greater than Randle's who is probably having the best season he'll ever have in his life. If he continues to chip away at his turnovers, find his stroke, and finds a way to be at least better than abysmal on defense he is a legit MVP caliber player. Personally, I think he'll get there with everything, with the exception of maybe the defense... but that's fine. Shclenk has added pieces around him that can mitigate those defensive shortcomings and If Trae develops into the top 5-10 player he is pretty close to already being with continued development of Collins and Hunter, and Cap, Bogi and Gallo continuing this type of play for the remainder of their contracts.... well that right there is something that could be very special, health willing.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Atlantaholic

[macdaddy]

I don't know if it was discussed earlier in the thread but we made no attempts to get JC the ball in the post last night.  Don't know why.   And then no JC for the end of game and OT.   I felt like with Trae down we needed to run through him a bit. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Thomas said:

Julius Randle....ugh. Just can't believe this is the same guy that played for the Lakers. Remember many of us thought his stats were empty when he had them back then. Not now.

 

Truth be told, Randle could always ball on the offensive end.  It's just now, he has a lethal 3 point shot to go with his game.  And he's averaging 6 assists a game, mainly because everything flows through him on offense.

With him, it was a classic case of people criticizing him for his lack of defensive toughness, and sometimes being played out of position at center.

Then again, it's all about maturity and development.  The guy is only 26 years old, but has been in the league 7 years.

And I hate the empty stats argument.  Just because a guy can ball, but his team doesn't win, it doesn't mean that his stats are "empty".  It may mean that his team sucks, or he just doesn't have the right pieces around him.

Devin Booker was an "empty stats" guy too.  Now that he's winning, people consider his numbers to be impactful.

[marco102]

12 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Truth be told, Randle could always ball on the offensive end.  It's just now, he has a lethal 3 point shot to go with his game.  And he's averaging 6 assists a game, mainly because everything flows through him on offense.

With him, it was a classic case of people criticizing him for his lack of defensive toughness, and sometimes being played out of position at center.

Then again, it's all about maturity and development.  The guy is only 26 years old, but has been in the league 7 years.

And I hate the empty stats argument.  Just because a guy can ball, but his team doesn't win, it doesn't mean that his stats are "empty".  It may mean that his team sucks, or he just doesn't have the right pieces around him.

Devin Booker was an "empty stats" guy too.  Now that he's winning, people consider his numbers to be impactful.

Say it louder for the people in the back!

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Atlantaholic said:

I disagree with the notion Trae has played on the level of Randle, 100%.

I don't disagree neither is an MVP candidate, already stated as much several times.

Truth is Trae has had a very up and down season, hasn't had as good of a season as last year overall, After the coaching change the team has taken off yet Trae's splits have been worse...both in his counting stats and scoring efficiency... obviously some of it I think is he has been playing through some nagging injuries, and also is  adjusting playing next to Bogi who is taking some of his volume away. So it's not like I'm down on Trae, he should have been an all star hands down in favor of Ben Simons. On the other hand though Randle has carried that team almost single handedly, leads them in basically every category outside of blocks, which I'm not sure how often that's happened in the NBA, but would wager you can count the players who have done that on one hand. Of course Thibs demands a TON of credit for the way they are playing, but without Randle you have a team of Elfriid Payton, Rj Barret, Bulock, Taj Gibson and Noel, with Rose of the bench which I'm pretty sure doesn't win 20 games this year. I would say overall Randle has been a top 10 player this year, right up there Capela. Trae is around top 25 maybe top 20. If we are talking strictly offense than obviously Trae is still a top 10 player even with his relative struggles this year. 

Facts. Tremendous post. It's easier for Trae next to Cam but that doesn't exactly make it easier for others. I do think where we struggle the most is individual defense. Our team defense has been fine since Nate took over.

[NBASupes]

21 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Truth be told, Randle could always ball on the offensive end.  It's just now, he has a lethal 3 point shot to go with his game.  And he's averaging 6 assists a game, mainly because everything flows through him on offense.

With him, it was a classic case of people criticizing him for his lack of defensive toughness, and sometimes being played out of position at center.

Then again, it's all about maturity and development.  The guy is only 26 years old, but has been in the league 7 years.

And I hate the empty stats argument.  Just because a guy can ball, but his team doesn't win, it doesn't mean that his stats are "empty".  It may mean that his team sucks, or he just doesn't have the right pieces around him.

Devin Booker was an "empty stats" guy too.  Now that he's winning, people consider his numbers to be impactful.

He was an empty stats guy to me. His playmaking took a massive jump as well as his shooting and shooting versatility. Let's not act like he played a modern game previously, he didn't. 

Booker was never an empty stats guy. He was like Trae, you wonder if their impact matched their stats but you knew their games were modern. That was unquestionable.

[kg01]

22 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Truth be told, Randle could always ball on the offensive end.  It's just now, he has a lethal 3 point shot to go with his game.  And he's averaging 6 assists a game, mainly because everything flows through him on offense.

With him, it was a classic case of people criticizing him for his lack of defensive toughness, and sometimes being played out of position at center.

Then again, it's all about maturity and development.  The guy is only 26 years old, but has been in the league 7 years.

And I hate the empty stats argument.  Just because a guy can ball, but his team doesn't win, it doesn't mean that his stats are "empty".  It may mean that his team sucks, or he just doesn't have the right pieces around him.

Devin Booker was an "empty stats" guy too.  Now that he's winning, people consider his numbers to be impactful.

Preach.  I thought you were an empty-stats poster 'til this. 

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Facts. Tremendous post. It's easier for Trae next to Cam but that doesn't exactly make it easier for others. I do think where we struggle the most is individual defense. Our team defense has been fine since Nate took over.

How you been feelin', homes?

[Atlantaholic]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Facts. Tremendous post. It's easier for Trae next to Cam but that doesn't exactly make it easier for others. I do think where we struggle the most is individual defense. Our team defense has been fine since Nate took over.

It's a personnel issue. Collins going down has hurt. I know we have been shitting on Collins for his defense on Randle, who honestly is just unguardable when he is nailing threes. but most nights Collins and Cap together are a fantastic defensive presence, and we've been missing that. On the wings Huerter (who has improved a lot lately and Bogi) are each around net neutral defenders at the 2 spot in my estimations... but I don't think they pair well together defensively, especially with Trae in the mix. If we had Hunter and could move Huerter to the second unit we would see a big jump defensively imo. 

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

Preach.  I thought you were an empty-stats poster 'til this. 

How you been feelin', homes?

Feeling good. Facts are, offensively, I've seen others benefit from Bogi more than Cam regardless of if he's playing good or bad. Trae tends to benefit more with Cam. He doesn't take away from his touches. Bogi does. Bogi demands volume touches in ways Kevin or Cam doesn't. Since Bogi got volume touches, he's been one of the best SGs in the NBA. 

[kg01]

Just now, NBASupes said:

He was an empty stats guy to me. His playmaking took a massive jump as well as his shooting and shooting versatility. Let's not act like he played a modern game previously, he didn't. 

Booker was never an empty stats guy. He was like Trae, you wonder if their impact matched their stats but you knew their games were modern. That was unquestionable.

I heard a pretty decent assessment of Randle and on next-level playmaking, in general, from Scalabrine.

He said Randle's assist numbers are good just because, as stated, the offense flows through him.  He's supposed to 'make the pass' to shooters so he ends up with assists.

The next step for him is actually making plays.  As in, seeing the floor/seeing plays develop and making the pass in furtherance of that.  Guys like Trae do that already.

Disclaimer: This isn't me trying to say something to make Trae look better than Randle. I'm just passing along something I heard in relation to what supes said.

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

I heard a pretty decent assessment of Randle and on next-level playmaking, in general, from Scalabrine.

He said Randle's assist numbers are good just because, as stated, the offense flows through him.  He's supposed to 'make the pass' to shooters so he ends up with assists.

The next step for him is actually making plays.  As in, seeing the floor/seeing plays develop and making the pass in furtherance of that.  Guys like Trae do that already.

Disclaimer: This isn't me trying to say something to make Trae look better than Randle. I'm just passing along something I heard in relation to what supes said.

The offense has run through him over the last 3 years in NY and NO. He generally has been a blackhole. A Zach Randolph prototype but man, his jump has been amazing. I can't remember someone who had this big of a jump in his 2nd contract since Tyson Chandler and Christian Laettner. Steph had an insane 2nd contract jump as well. 

[kg01]

Just now, NBASupes said:

The offense has run through him over the last 3 years in NY and NO. He generally has been a blackhole. A Zach Randolph prototype but man, his jump has been amazing. I can't remember someone who had this big of a jump in his 2nd contract since Tyson Chandler and Christian Laettner. Steph had an insane 2nd contract jump as well. 

I'm really curious to see this team (NYK) next year.  I wonder if this has staying power or if it's that typical pop from that Thibs-style coach.

[Atlantaholic]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

The offense has run through him over the last 3 years in NY and NO. He generally has been a blackhole. A Zach Randolph prototype but man, his jump has been amazing. I can't remember someone who had this big of a jump in his 2nd contract since Tyson Chandler and Christian Laettner. Steph had an insane 2nd contract jump as well. 

Yea, and I would say that Randle's seems less likely. Tyson was mega raw out of high-school, Laettner had underachieved, and Step had his injuyr issues, so them making jumps at least made some sense....but this jump from Randle it just... has come out of completely left field. I think he was an ok player before, but he's become a franchise type guy from one season to the next out of the blue. 

[JayBirdHawk]

58 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I can get behind this.  

I think from an offensive standpoint, Trae is playing better this year than last year. He's just not hitting his shots. His turnovers are down and shot selection much improved.  I don't know what the hell has happened to his three point shot or floater, most likely injury and not practicing as much, but I'll be glad when he gets it back. 

As great as Capela has been, he is a lane clogger for Trae and his floater. There are just more bodies there for him to navigate to shoot over and around with the floater. Clint's man is now statiined in the lane right next to Cap. (Whereas with Len and  Dedmon on the perimeter had one less big in the lane)

Early in the season it looked like he was caught between a lob to Capela and actually shooting the floater (Still see that sometimes). Refs are now also allowing players to bump him from behind on the floater without calling fouls.

[Atlantaholic]

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

As great as Capela has been, he is a lane clogger for Trae and his floater. There are just more bodies there for him to navigate to shoot over and around with the floater. Clint's man is now statiined in the lane right next to Cap. (Whereas with Len and  Dedmon on the perimeter had one less big in the lane)

Early in the season it looked like he was caught between a lob to Capela and actually shooting the floater (Still see that sometimes). Refs are now also allowing players to bump him from behind on the floater without calling fouls.

I actually disagree with this. The threat of the lob to Cap forces centers to stay home and Trae has gotten soooooo many wide open  floater looks, it's kind of mind-boggling how he has struggled this year with that shot. 

[Atlantaholic]

3 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I'm really curious to see this team (NYK) next year.  I wonder if this has staying power or if it's that typical pop from that Thibs-style coach.

I think there's a decent chance this will be the best shooting season of his career. His percentages on jump shots, threes and free throws are sooo much higher than they were throughout his entire career, it's hard to imagine we won't see some regression there. 

[terrell]

13 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

 

 

Or was it a Julius Randle restriction?