John Collins - Max kat, 90 million-4yrs kat, or Gallo salary kat

[AHF]

27 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

What if it's 4 year/120. That would not be ideal. 

If we end up facing that, I think I'd want all the information available at the time of decision to give you my definitive view but my bias would be to match and worry about salaries later.  If the 4/120 is an offer sheet, TS could also look at potential S&T (which might be necessary for the deal depending on who is offering) but obviously not if JC has signed that sheet.

As others have said, I am hoping that his play this season (both regular and post-season) will lead the market to land somewhere we feel is fair market value.  I don't rule out the possibility of a crazy offer coming in, though, because I've seen it too many times before in this league.  If that comes, TS will have to deal with that reality and it could.

[NBASupes]

8 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

I'd be shocked if someone looked at Collins and decided to give him that kind of contract. He's a player who has never shown the ability to create for himself, and is not a defensive anchor either. Why pay him like he's a top player when most teams don't even have a PG like Trae that can maximize John's talents. I imagine what the Hawks have already offered is not far from other team's valuation. Even if you believe Collins has room for growth, if I'm another team I'd have to question how effective John would be if he was not playing with Trae.

Facts! Teams know this too. That 4/90 was an extremely aggressive offer at the time and I honestly don't believe JC is worth right now. It was a potential based offer and I am not mad at JC for turning it down and saying I can fight for more but these playoffs is not going to do him any service. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by NBASupes

[AHF]

21 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

I'd be shocked if someone looked at Collins and decided to give him that kind of contract. He's a player who has never shown the ability to create for himself, and is not a defensive anchor either. Why pay him like he's a top player when most teams don't even have a PG like Trae that can maximize John's talents. I imagine what the Hawks have already offered is not far from other team's valuation. Even if you believe Collins has room for growth, if I'm another team I'd have to question how effective John would be if he was not playing with Trae.

The only argument I can see for another team valuing JC higher is to argue that he and Capela don't fit together on offense as both guys are elite roll men and only one guy on the floor can do that effectively at any point in time.  So if another team didn't already have someone in that role they might make the case that JC would be more productive there than he is here even if their offensive intiator can't pass as well as Trae (which he almost surely can't).  Otherwise, I am looking at it like this as well and am hopeful you guys are right about his market. 

The case you make is rational and sometimes NBA GMs are not rational (see $$ to Evan Turner, Kent Bazemore, Jayson Williams, Erick Dampier, Jon Koncak, etc.  That is my main worry.

[nathan2331]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

The case you make is rational and sometimes NBA GMs are not rational (see $$ to Evan Turner, Kent Bazemore, Jayson Williams, Erick Dampier, Jon Koncak, etc.  That is my main worry.

That's true, there is always the possibility that someone else in the league see's something in John we haven't seen yet. I just don't think it will happen now that he's been fairly mediocre in the playoffs. Teams these days are less-shortsighted for the most part. Any team paying Collins 30 million a years is not gonna win much. Too much money for what he brings.

[NBASupes]

13 minutes ago, AHF said:

The only argument I can see for another team valuing JC higher is to argue that he and Capela don't fit together on offense as both guys are elite roll men and only one guy on the floor can do that effectively at any point in time.  So if another team didn't already have someone in that role they might make the case that JC would be more productive there than he is here even if their offensive intiator can't pass as well as Trae (which he almost surely can't).  Otherwise, I am looking at it like this as well and am hopeful you guys are right about his market. 

The case you make is rational and sometimes NBA GMs are not rational (see $$ to Evan Turner, Kent Bazemore, Jayson Williams, Erick Dampier, Jon Koncak, etc.  That is my main worry.

In that same argument, Capela highly benefited JC on defense so there is multiple ways to look at it. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Diesel, I know you live in the world of Diesel but in reality, no one is giving JC a max deal. He doesn't fit what teams are looking for and the teams who generally would are capped out. I know Diesel, in your world of the 90s, JC is a big deal but in the modern NBA, he has value but not that much damn value. 

If you were talking about playoff teams... you might be correct.   But for teams that need to win and elevate to the playoffs, JC has value. 

 In a league where those in charge actual listen to what players say....  What do you think this KD acknowledgment mean?  It means much more than your ramblings about how JC has no or little worth?  I guarantee you that the teams that drafted Marvin Bagley Jr. and Jaren Jackson Jr. would happily give them up for JC.   And those guys were drafted before Trae. 

I love how you try to peg JC's skillset as 90s??  Keep trying.   He's a PNR/PNP specialist who can also score from outside.   40% from three these past two years and his PNP is better than his PNR. 

Keep trying Supes. 

 

 

 

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

That's true, there is always the possibility that someone else in the league see's something in John we haven't seen yet. I just don't think it will happen now that he's been fairly mediocre in the playoffs. Teams these days are less-shortsighted for the most part. Any team paying Collins 30 million a years is not gonna win much. Too much money for what he brings.

When you got money, you gotta spend it on someone and everyone is not about rebuilding either. The Pacers are a team I can see having interest in JC. He's a fit next to Sabonis for the new style they want to play. They have no cap space but they are a team that could call for a SnT. They just likely won't offer anything to make Atlanta bite

[Diesel]

Since we're talking JC.

Going into the offseason...

Would you trade JC (SNT 4 year 120 Million) for Cody Zeller and a top 5 protected 2023 1st rounder?

 

[nathan2331]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

When you got money, you gotta spend it on someone and everyone is not about rebuilding either. The Pacers are a team I can see having interest in JC. He's a fit next to Sabonis for the new style they want to play. They have no cap space but they are a team that could call for a SnT. They just likely won't offer anything to make Atlanta bite

I'm sure they'd be interested, but how much more would they be willing to pay Collins than us? If we already offered something close to 90 million over 4 years, the Pacers would have to be delusional to significantly outbid us to entice Collins on top of giving us assets. Especially when they still need to find a suitor for Myles Turner. The teams that need him aren't sending the Pacers the kind of assets they would covet.

 

10 minutes ago, Diesel said:

If you were talking about playoff teams... you might be correct.   But for teams that need to win and elevate to the playoffs, JC has value. 

 In a league where those in charge actual listen to what players say....  What do you think this KD acknowledgment mean?  It means much more than your ramblings about how JC has no or little worth?  I guarantee you that the teams that drafted Marvin Bagley Jr. and Jaren Jackson Jr. would happily give them up for JC.   And those guys were drafted before Trae. 

I love how you try to peg JC's skillset as 90s??  Keep trying.   He's a PNR/PNP specialist who can also score from outside.   40% from three these past two years and his PNP is better than his PNR. 

Keep trying Supes. 

 

 

 

You don't pay max money for a guy to slip screens. If Collins does get paid it's because a team believes he's capable of creating his offense and we didn't give him the chance to do it here. I'd say they'd easily be proven wrong considering how this series has gone so far. Collins can barely attack a closeout without fumbling the ball if he doesn't have a clear path to the rim. He can make plays here and there, but he has never shown an ability to score on bigger player. If Jerami Grant got 3 years 60 million last year, then I don't think we should see John get much more than 4 years 100 million. He's valuable, but at 30 million a season John will have somebody cussing him out just like when we paid Joe even though his effort didn't change.

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

If you were talking about playoff teams... you might be correct.   But for teams that need to win and elevate to the playoffs, JC has value. 

 In a league where those in charge actual listen to what players say....  What do you think this KD acknowledgment mean?  It means much more than your ramblings about how JC has no or little worth?  I guarantee you that the teams that drafted Marvin Bagley Jr. and Jaren Jackson Jr. would happily give them up for JC.   And those guys were drafted before Trae. 

I love how you try to peg JC's skillset as 90s??  Keep trying.   He's a PNR/PNP specialist who can also score from outside.   40% from three these past two years and his PNP is better than his PNR. 

Keep trying Supes. 

 

 

 

Like which team Diesel. You said Charlotte. They are targeting centers which they BADLY need. 

Spurs are targeting cheaper options like Lauri M and others. 

Not many teams have the money. Maybe Atlanta can do a SnT to Indy for Turner with JC but Atlanta doesn't need Turner.

Only like 6 teams have realistic cap space.

OKC - rebuilding 

NYK - Star hunting 

CHA - Center shopping and bargin hunting

SA - Shopping for bargains

TOR - realistically likely rebuilding. No need for JC

 

The teams that need JC like IND and SAC are capped out. 

 

So @Diesel, which teams will give JC that money?

[AHF]

1 hour ago, nathan2331 said:

That's true, there is always the possibility that someone else in the league see's something in John we haven't seen yet. I just don't think it will happen now that he's been fairly mediocre in the playoffs. Teams these days are less-shortsighted for the most part. Any team paying Collins 30 million a years is not gonna win much. Too much money for what he brings.

There is a long storied history of bad teams overpaying and remaining bad.  Again, not logical but teams aren't always logical.

[Gray Mule]

THE TRAP

Atlanta Falcons had Julio Jones on a huge contract.  They couldn't pay their all star and their draft picks.  Jones is now with the Titans for 2 future draft picks.  A 2 and a 4.

Collins wants a huge contract.  If he gets it, sooner or later the Hawks will find it necessary to give him up or some other player that they need to keep.  Hawks should match any reasonable offer that Collins gets.  But, if a great big, unreasonable sign and trade offer comes, we give him that "Dear John" letter.

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Like which team Diesel. You said Charlotte. They are targeting centers which they BADLY need. 

Spurs are targeting cheaper options like Lauri M and others. 

Not many teams have the money. Maybe Atlanta can do a SnT to Indy for Turner with JC but Atlanta doesn't need Turner.

Only like 6 teams have realistic cap space.

OKC - rebuilding 

NYK - Star hunting 

CHA - Center shopping and bargin hunting

SA - Shopping for bargains

TOR - realistically likely rebuilding. No need for JC

 

The teams that need JC like IND and SAC are capped out. 

 

So @Diesel, which teams will give JC that money?

Hornets are looking for a C ..... via Trade.   They are on the front line for either Myles Turner or Porzingas.  But you know that.   That means that they will still have cap space  to go after JC if he's not liking what we're saying.   For Turner, they are fighting the TWolves but not really.   Indy is trying to get Charlotte to bid against itself.   However, after picks and Zeller is exchanged for Turner, they can still sign JC. 

 

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, nathan2331 said:

I'm sure they'd be interested, but how much more would they be willing to pay Collins than us? If we already offered something close to 90 million over 4 years, the Pacers would have to be delusional to significantly outbid us to entice Collins on top of giving us assets. Especially when they still need to find a suitor for Myles Turner. The teams that need him aren't sending the Pacers the kind of assets they would covet.

 

You don't pay max money for a guy to slip screens. If Collins does get paid it's because a team believes he's capable of creating his offense and we didn't give him the chance to do it here. I'd say they'd easily be proven wrong considering how this series has gone so far. Collins can barely attack a closeout without fumbling the ball if he doesn't have a clear path to the rim. He can make plays here and there, but he has never shown an ability to score on bigger player. If Jerami Grant got 3 years 60 million last year, then I don't think we should see John get much more than 4 years 100 million. He's valuable, but at 30 million a season John will have somebody cussing him out just like when we paid Joe even though his effort didn't change.

I'm not saying that a team has to come off with the max.  They just have to do better than what we will.   As far as What teams won't pay for....  They signed Heyward and they have LeMelo and Rozier.   The Hornets have to put a winner on the floor.  A guy that can slip screens is what Lemelo needs to be most effective. 

 

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Hornets are looking for a C ..... via Trade.   They are on the front line for either Myles Turner or Porzingas.  But you know that.   That means that they will still have cap space  to go after JC if he's not liking what we're saying.   For Turner, they are fighting the TWolves but not really.   Indy is trying to get Charlotte to bid against itself.   However, after picks and Zeller is exchanged for Turner, they can still sign JC. 

 

Hornets are targeting Holmes and Turner 

Their fanbase wants cheaper based centers who fit their window like Wiseman who will not be had likely in my eyes.

 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.atthehive.com/platform/amp/2021/6/8/22463211/charlotte-hornets-center-trade-targets

Holmes becoming an IT man of this FA class which is why I continue to say teams are going value if the demand is too high. They are realizing these bad contracts are nearly impossible to get rid of.

I don't see the interest in JC like that for them. Considering Miles Bridges had a hell of a 2nd half of the season, his extension is a priority and two way wings are a lot more valuable than what JC is in the modern NBA. 

[NBASupes]

4 years 40 million

[NBASupes]

4 years 80 million

[JTB]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

4 years 80 million

If Collins plays like he did tonight rest of the playoffs the 5/100 should be a good deal for him.

JC was awesome tonight! Even Doc just said he thought he was the toughest player on the floor tonight .

[NBASupes]

Tonight he brought it on both ends after halftime. Him and Capela

[hylndr11]

I didn't get to see it but what was capela doing they said he was facing embeed this game,