John Collins - Max kat, 90 million-4yrs kat, or Gallo salary kat

[hawkzlova123]

If we gonna pay then why not just sign like KaT or something 

[JayBirdHawk]

 

10 hours ago, JTB said:

180 mil???? I thought JCs max he could get was 120 over 5 years !

This the first I’m hearing of 180 mil over 5….I like JC but that scares me

 

8 hours ago, JTB said:

Yeah 180 mil is ridiculous. Now I can see what all the fuss was about on what a potential max for JC could do by hurting the future.

this whole time I was thinking his max was 120 and saying ok that’s a lot for him but we will survive it. But 180 mil????? MAN!….if he gets anywhere close to that I think the hawks lose that deal no matter how you try to swing it.

do I think a nba team would offer him a deal close to 180 mil?? Hell no! Not at all BUT there’s always a desperate team out there so you never know.

A 5 year deal was never much of a discussion point for JC, and only the Hawks can offer him a 5 year deal with 8% raises. All other teams are limited to 4 year deals with 5% raises.

Here is the breakdown I did awhile back assuming a $112 million salary cap:

5yr Max from Hawks - $170 mil

4yr Max from Hawks - $130 mil

4yr Max from another team - $117 mil

4yr offer from Hawks - $90 mil (rumored)

4yr ask from JC - anywhere between $100 - $126 mil (rumored)

 

Discussed here previously (page 33):

 

 

 

Also this:

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

2 hours ago, hawkzlova123 said:

If we gonna pay then why not just sign like KaT or something 

KAT is not a free agent, it would have to be a trade.

[JayBirdHawk]

10 hours ago, bleachkit said:

Both are going to wealthy men. I dont know what Portis will get, but rest assured, it will be a significant raise. 

Portis has a $3.8 mil player option which he'll probably decline and become a FA. Bobby is wrapling up his 8th season and has always been a bench player. A team signing Collins will slot him in as their starting PF.

[bleachkit]

9 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Portis has a $3.8 mil player option which he'll probably decline and become a FA. Bobby is wrapling up his 8th season and has always been a bench player. A team signing Collins will slot him in as their starting PF.

Yes, I'm aware of that. 

[RandomFan]

25 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

 

A 5 year deal was never much of a discussion point for JC, and only the Hawks can offer him a 5 year deal with 8% raises. All other teams are limited to 4 year deals with 5% raises.

Here is the breakdown I did awhile back assuming a $112 million salary cap:

5yr Max from Hawks - $170 mil

4yr Max from Hawks - $130 mil

4yr Max from another team - $117 mil

4yr offer from Hawks - $90 mil (rumored)

4yr ask from JC - anywhere between $100 - $126 mil (rumored)

 

Discussed here previously (page 33):

 

 

 

Also this:

 

 

Thanks. I feel like JC has proven the Hawks made a more than generous offer already. 

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[Spud2nique]

Per bleacher:

John Collins is a restricted free agent this summer, but he's hoping to continue building a title contender in Atlanta.

“It’s something that I feel like I’ve voiced my opinion about a lot saying, that I want to be here," Collins told reporters Sunday. "... We’re going to have to come to a decision very soon, but hopefully, the best one for me is the one that keeps me here." 

While Collins may want the free-agency process to move quickly, he doesn't necessarily have the power in this case. 

The Hawks could allow him to hit the open market and then match whatever offer he receives from another team. The restricted free-agent market tends to have a cooling effect because teams fear having their cap space tied up for days while waiting to see if the incumbent franchise matches the deal.

Teammate Clint Capela is on a below-market contract in part because the Houston Rockets did the same thing with him in restricted free agency. They ultimately agreed upon a deal four weeks into the free-agency period.

Collins is a productive big who shoots 40 percent from three and can block shots but isn't a particularly impactful defender. Capela's arrival raised questions about his long-term future in Atlanta, as did trade rumors ahead of the March 25 trade deadline.

That may all have changed due to the Hawks' surprising run to the Eastern Conference Finals. 

Collins' scoring average declined during the playoffs, but the Hawks found a formula that worked. They played .700 basketball after installing Nate McMillan as their interim coach in March before the playoff run. 

It's possible, if not likely, that the Hawks do everything in their power to run it back with this same group in 2021-22. 

[Spud2nique]

We gotta get John a contract fair for both sides and have the kid stay. As much as I love Okongwu, I really love JC too and they bring different talents to us.

 

Keep Trae’s fav lob target ! 
 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

23 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Per bleacher:

Teammate Clint Capela is on a below-market contract in part because the Houston Rockets did the same thing with him in restricted free agency. They ultimately agreed upon a deal four weeks into the free-agency period.

I went looking up the Capela Rockets FAcy stuff. Very interesting:

"....It made it that much more confusing, then, when it was reported that the team was low-balling Capela with relatively small contracts.

Capela - a restricted free agent - was reportedly unhappy with the team for the offer, and was leaning towards taking the one-year qualifying offer, which would allow him to enter unrestricted free agency in 2019, and sign with any team.

Apparently the two sides worked out their differences, as they settled on a five-year, $90 million deal."

 

Rockets originally offered 4/$60 million, Clint was looking for a deal similar to Steven Adams' 4yr/$100 mil.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

Hey Jollins, will you sacrifice some of that money too? 

[NBASupes]

I like JC and my opinion means nothing but I am out on JC. That said, I would rather resign him than lose him for nothing but I would much rather get a Brogdon deal for JC which is a 1st and several 2nds instead. JC does have winning value and does help us. He adjusted in the playoffs to the physical style of play and did more good than harm which separates from the Harrell's of the world. JC clearly deserves Gallo contract and due to his age and potential to be better, he could command 4/100 and I believe it's not as much of a reach than when Atlanta offered 4/90 which was a reach offer to me at the time. 

I just see him as replaceable to a degree. Nic Batum could help us costing 80 million dollars less if not more than 80 million. A P.J. Tucker, a Kelly Olynyk, a Bobby Portis, a J Vanderbilt, an Otto Porter Jr., a Justise Winslow can come in and give us positive play for a 10th of the cost of JC. Losing JC will suck, in the RS, he's a rarity. A stretch big that can finish is extremely hard to find. The other two outside of JC are HOF types in KAT and Embiid. The issue is, those guys are not heavily assisted or they can't score, JC is. The question is real and true, without Trae, can JC score. The answer is generally, yeah depending on the matchup, not at all in the playoffs. That's scary to be honest. I just don't buy-in to JC and I can't lie, it's been hard for me to buy in as a playoff player. His offense drops off so much as well. It's bothersome. 

I just see Batum and I am like, Batum can be just as effective for 85 million less. We can't find anyone who can make our offense elite like Trae. We can't find anyone who can make our defense work like Clint which has his flaws in the playoffs. JC is not a two way player. If anything, Kevin showed a lot more two way ability. I am just selling my JC stock. That don't mean I don't want him back because I do but I just don't think even 4/90 is a good investment even if it's a safe one. 

 

For me, he's 7th on my importance for the future chart

1. Trae

2. The potential two way wings (Hunter and Cam)

4. Kevin - Two way potential but not as high a ceiling

5. Bogi - Offensive machine when healthy. I really think he solved that secondary ball handler issue we had. 

6. Capela - Defensive superstar impact wise but in reality, just a defensive star, not a superstar on that end. His playoff value like JC is clearly lower but at the end of the day, replacement isn't there for an upgrade. Even Gobert, offers a lot of the same flaws with more upside but he's also a lot more expensive. 

7. JC - I value what he does it's only so impactful. He actually has real value. More than anyone not named Trae but I have to look at what matters. What JC does, is it really that valuable? In the RS, I could make a case for it but in the playoffs, no, I can't. 

8. Okongwu - Shooting is a swing skill. 

 

I actually think JC deserves to be the 2nd highest paid player on this team. He deserves that, I just don't think it's a good idea. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by NBASupes

[Sothron]

This is like the Joe Johnson situation. We won't have the cap room to do anything if we just let Collins walk. We need to keep him. Even if it is to later trade him in a blockbuster deal situation we need to keep him. 

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, Sothron said:

This is like the Joe Johnson situation. We won't have the cap room to do anything if we just let Collins walk. We need to keep him. Even if it is to later trade him in a blockbuster deal situation we need to keep him. 

I don't see this like Joe Johnson at all. I see this more like Josh Smith or Jeff Teague. The Joe Johnson problem was he didn't deserve what he got but we were forced to do it because he was an UFA and we needed him. We don't need JC, just like we didn't need Smoove or Teague. JC is a nice to have like those two were. He's not critical to our success. We lose Iso Joe, there isn't anyone on the market (Trade or FA) that could give us even 1/3 of what Iso Joe gave us. When we resigned Smoove and matched Jeff, we could have let them walk but we wanted to keep them with thoughts we could move them later which wasn't possible for Smoove but was for Jeff but we didn't get much in return. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by NBASupes

[georgia]

Agreed w ranking @NBASupes

maybe even have OO ahead of Collins.  Such a tough call now.  I do think a healthy Hunter and reddish starting at the 3 and 4 going forward is more beneficial 

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, georgia said:

Agreed w ranking @NBASupes

maybe even have OO ahead of Collins.  Such a tough call now.  I do think a healthy Hunter and reddish starting at the 3 and 4 going forward is more beneficial 

I been thinking this since Bogi emerged. While Trae/Bogi is a defensive issue, offensively, those two when healthy are hell on defenses. Cam and Hunter, you can guard the two best players with those two. Hunter can guard Giannis, Randle, Simmons, Harris, Kyrie, Jrue, and so many types. Cam can guard Curry, Middleton, and so many types as well. Our defense is special when Hunter/Capela are on the court at the same time. I just think, JC value is more RS while Hunter at the 4, is more playoffs friendly. 

[TheBigETrain]

Offer him 4 years, $100m with incentives. Slight increase from our initial $90m offer. 

If he rejects this, then shop him to other teams for a sign and trade deal.

I think he is too consistent to be worth a max deal right now.

He can make more money if he hits his incentive targets eg All-star game selection. Games played, etc

[RandomFan]

2 hours ago, TheBigETrain said:

Offer him 4 years, $100m with incentives. Slight increase from our initial $90m offer. 

If he rejects this, then shop him to other teams for a sign and trade deal.

I think he is too consistent to be worth a max deal right now.

He can make more money if he hits his incentive targets eg All-star game selection. Games played, etc

Then you are incentivizing him to play for his own stats instead of sacrificing for the good of the team. Not smart.

[RandomFan]

5 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I like JC and my opinion means nothing but I am out on JC. That said, I would rather resign him than lose him for nothing but I would much rather get a Brogdon deal for JC which is a 1st and several 2nds instead. JC does have winning value and does help us. He adjusted in the playoffs to the physical style of play and did more good than harm which separates from the Harrell's of the world. JC clearly deserves Gallo contract and due to his age and potential to be better, he could command 4/100 and I believe it's not as much of a reach than when Atlanta offered 4/90 which was a reach offer to me at the time. 

I just see him as replaceable to a degree. Nic Batum could help us costing 80 million dollars less if not more than 80 million. A P.J. Tucker, a Kelly Olynyk, a Bobby Portis, a J Vanderbilt, an Otto Porter Jr., a Justise Winslow can come in and give us positive play for a 10th of the cost of JC. Losing JC will suck, in the RS, he's a rarity. A stretch big that can finish is extremely hard to find. The other two outside of JC are HOF types in KAT and Embiid. The issue is, those guys are not heavily assisted or they can't score, JC is. The question is real and true, without Trae, can JC score. The answer is generally, yeah depending on the matchup, not at all in the playoffs. That's scary to be honest. I just don't buy-in to JC and I can't lie, it's been hard for me to buy in as a playoff player. His offense drops off so much as well. It's bothersome. 

I just see Batum and I am like, Batum can be just as effective for 85 million less. We can't find anyone who can make our offense elite like Trae. We can't find anyone who can make our defense work like Clint which has his flaws in the playoffs. JC is not a two way player. If anything, Kevin showed a lot more two way ability. I am just selling my JC stock. That don't mean I don't want him back because I do but I just don't think even 4/90 is a good investment even if it's a safe one. 

 

For me, he's 7th on my importance for the future chart

1. Trae

2. The potential two way wings (Hunter and Cam)

4. Kevin - Two way potential but not as high a ceiling

5. Bogi - Offensive machine when healthy. I really think he solved that secondary ball handler issue we had. 

6. Capela - Defensive superstar impact wise but in reality, just a defensive star, not a superstar on that end. His playoff value like JC is clearly lower but at the end of the day, replacement isn't there for an upgrade. Even Gobert, offers a lot of the same flaws with more upside but he's also a lot more expensive. 

7. JC - I value what he does it's only so impactful. He actually has real value. More than anyone not named Trae but I have to look at what matters. What JC does, is it really that valuable? In the RS, I could make a case for it but in the playoffs, no, I can't. 

8. Okongwu - Shooting is a swing skill. 

 

I actually think JC deserves to be the 2nd highest paid player on this team. He deserves that, I just don't think it's a good idea. 

Move Okongwu to #4, bump everyone else down and I agree. 

Also Bogi is a solid defender. Gotta remember since game 4 vs Philly he's been playing on one leg. He's also tough as nails. Some of those bs screens he ate in the playoffs were borderline assaults, but he never complained. 

[NBASupes]

4 hours ago, TheBigETrain said:

Offer him 4 years, $100m with incentives. Slight increase from our initial $90m offer. 

If he rejects this, then shop him to other teams for a sign and trade deal.

I think he is too consistent to be worth a max deal right now.

He can make more money if he hits his incentive targets eg All-star game selection. Games played, etc

These incentives aren't team friendly. It's so hard to make an all star team as well. I honestly think Capela would be ahead of him due to metrics

Edited July 6, 2021 by NBASupes