John Collins - Max kat, 90 million-4yrs kat, or Gallo salary kat

[Gray Mule]

$$$$$ and John.  He's going to get a huge payday regardless of who pays.  But, on the other hand, he really wants to stay in Atlanta.  Trae wants his buddy to stay here.  His leaving could be a problem for our PG.  Another team, wishing bad things for the Hawks, could offer more than reasonable, just to mess up the Hawks.  Allowing him to leave could leave a bad taste in the mouth of Hawk fans toward that team.

I really want Collins to stay.  I want him under a reasonable contract.  Another team, NY for example, could try to mess with the Hawks by offering him a much too big offer sheet.  Not saying they would do this.  Not saying they wouldn't either.

[Sothron]

Collins is on the record saying he never asked for a max deal. he said he felt he deserved a little more than the hawks offered. So offer him 100/4 years and hopefully he stays. 

The big problem is that as a RFA we could be on the other end of the Bogi situation. I have no idea why anyone would want him to just walk for nothing. We don't have a starting PF behind him. Gallo is clearly better used off the bench. OO can't remotely play the 4 since he has zero and I mean zero shooting ability.

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Collins is on the record saying he never asked for a max deal. he said he felt he deserved a little more than the hawks offered. So offer him 100/4 years and hopefully he stays. 

The big problem is that as a RFA we could be on the other end of the Bogi situation. I have no idea why anyone would want him to just walk for nothing. We don't have a starting PF behind him. Gallo is clearly better used off the bench. OO can't remotely play the 4 since he has zero and I mean zero shooting ability.

That's not what his people are saying behind the scenes. They want a max deal. If they get it is one thing but they for sure want it 

[AHF]

Just now, NBASupes said:

That's not what his people are saying behind the scenes. They want a max deal. If they get it is one thing but they for sure want it 

If they won't settle on a deal with us at a reasonable price, then you probably need to let him test the waters as a RFA while making it known you intend to keep him.  That is a classic formula for keeping offers in check because most teams that would offer him that large of a deal want to use that money quickly and the Hawks can keep it tied up for a couple days and ultimately match which can ruin an offseason for another team.  It is how Capela's last deal got done and many other RFAs.  

His play in the playoffs should make it very clear to everyone that he isn't worth a max deal but a max deal for another team is 4 years and ~$117M so the gap between say a 4 year, $100M deal and his max (from another team) is just $4.25M/year.  While that isn't nothing, it isn't that big in the grand scheme of things so if you have to match and try to trade him later that isn't the worst thing in the world to me.

[RedDawg#8]

As I had to be reminded on multiple occasions, the "Max" anyone can offer outside of the Hawks is 4 yrs 117 million. Just north of 29 per year

For me, I'm willing to roll the dice a see if he gets that from someone. I think we are going to be somewhere around 25 or 26 mil per, and at that point it's up to him if he wants to jump ship for the additional 3 mil.

[JeffS17]

Something that I haven't seen discussed but think is interesting to consider....

Say we end up maxing Collins to the disappointment of a lot of people here.  Now he's a max contract guy and maybe he keeps working on his game and gets some more touches, hopefully he cleans up his handles a bit, at least when he's on the low block backing guys down.  My question is: what does Collins look like in an NBA game where the refs actually respect him?  How many fouls is he drawing inside?  How many phantom fouls no longer get called on him when he plays defense?  Does he get reffed differently or no?  I only asked this because in the past 5 years, I can't remember anyone getting disrespected more by the refs than John.  It's egregious at times.  Obviously I'm not suggesting he depend on the refs or anything but I do wonder if he looks a lot better if he gets any respect or whistle justice at all.

[NBASupes]

24 minutes ago, AHF said:

If they won't settle on a deal with us at a reasonable price, then you probably need to let him test the waters as a RFA while making it known you intend to keep him.  That is a classic formula for keeping offers in check because most teams that would offer him that large of a deal want to use that money quickly and the Hawks can keep it tied up for a couple days and ultimately match which can ruin an offseason for another team.  It is how Capela's last deal got done and many other RFAs.  

His play in the playoffs should make it very clear to everyone that he isn't worth a max deal but a max deal for another team is 4 years and ~$117M so the gap between say a 4 year, $100M deal and his max (from another team) is just $4.25M/year.  While that isn't nothing, it isn't that big in the grand scheme of things so if you have to match and try to trade him later that isn't the worst thing in the world to me.

I disagree, I don't think it's as easy as everyone on the JC lovers train thinks it is. Everyone who loves JC swears we can package him in a blockbuster deal. I honestly think we want get shit in a trade for JC and it will just hurt us down the line. In fact, what we get via a SnT will be better than what we would get in a normal trade of JC. I just don't buy his trade value. We tried to trade him during the deadline and we didn't get anything great at all. His value is better than Eric Bledsoe out of Milwaukee but it's not close to D'Angelo Russell in the same situation going into his RFA year. He's inbetween them. His value is pretty much Malcolm Brogdon's but slightly less because he doesn't do the extremely valued things you need from a PF that MB does as a SG but he doesn't have the health questions like MB does which helps JC. 

If that's his value, I don't see him being the centerpiece of any blockbuster deal. Outside of Trae, I don't think we got anyone that would fit for a blockbuster deal. Maybe Hunter or Reddish potentially in the future but not right now. Reddish is currently seen a buy-low guy and Atlanta is only willing to move him for a legit superstar which is scust to others around the league. Hunter has more value but it's still not on the level of blockbuster either. To me, Jaylen Brown is a centerpiece of a blockbuster deal. We asked for him, they replied, they want Trae, lmao! I know Hawk fans, like all fans, we tend to be massive on our guys but no one outside of Trae has tremendous trade value right now and we aren't trading him so we just got a lot of guys on elite rookie deals. The minute we pay JC, his trade value drops substantially. We need to be realistic, we sign JC, the most with can trade him for is a similar contract and a lesser player or package of lesser players which doesn't help our cap and we might, get a 1st for all that. 

[hylndr11]

Exactly , dude.ismt worth what we.offered.him.to begin with , y'all are gonna flip it script when we sign him and he's making actual money still giving what he gives, which we have to because we can't replace him unless an extreme amount of luck comes out way.  

Edited July 6, 2021 by hylndr11

[Carmine]

4/90 or sign and trade

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Something that I haven't seen discussed but think is interesting to consider....

Say we end up maxing Collins to the disappointment of a lot of people here.  Now he's a max contract guy and maybe he keeps working on his game and gets some more touches, hopefully he cleans up his handles a bit, at least when he's on the low block backing guys down.  My question is: what does Collins look like in an NBA game where the refs actually respect him?  How many fouls is he drawing inside?  How many phantom fouls no longer get called on him when he plays defense?  Does he get reffed differently or no?  I only asked this because in the past 5 years, I can't remember anyone getting disrespected more by the refs than John.  It's egregious at times.  Obviously I'm not suggesting he depend on the refs or anything but I do wonder if he looks a lot better if he gets any respect or whistle justice at all.

I don't see him being much better than he is now. His handles are bad because he got no feel for the ball like Smoove. I do think he has strong hands unlike Smoove but Smoove has more of a natural handle, he just dribbles slow and can't dribble to his play speed. JC simply struggles at dribbling like Clint. Thankfully, unlike Smoove, JC don't try to do what he shouldn't and can't do which is why JC is a positive and Smoove was a headache. I think he's ceiling capped. That said, JC will always work extremely hard and find a way to POSITIVELY impact the game. I think that's worth something to be honest. When many guys can't play their game, they go home and blame everyone else and hurt the team. Not JC, he bust his f***ing ass and tries to find a way how he can help the team. He has natural limitations like body type, length, court vision, passing skills, lateral quickness, and ball handling but he makes up for it with a lot of intangibles and he's great at what he's great at. 

To me, JC is unique. He's been a positive every year of his career. He impacts the game positively. He has BBIQ and really plays his role well and can adjust to lesser roles. There is a lot to like about JC and it's why I say, he deserves the offer of 4/90. That said, this is an impact sport and certain things are valued a lot more especially when it matters in the playoffs. 

It's much better to be elite on one end than to be very good at one end and average at the other. Capela is an average offensive player if Trae is in, without Trae, below average at best and near elite on defense if, not RS elite. Trae is elite on offense and bad on defense and even though JC is more valuable, Trae is far more impactful and without him, we aren't close to the same team. 

JC isn't Draymond, he isn't heavily flawed like Green is but Draymond offers strengths that make him an elite playoff player and impact guy with his elite defense and unique offense which makes him very impactful on that end as well in the playoffs while being hit or miss during the season. JC doesn't offer that, he offers more of what's valued in the RS and in the playoffs he's clearly a 4th option type who plays hard and smart but is a defender you gotta protect and just don't offer any versatility. 

[NBASupes]

9 minutes ago, hylndr11 said:

Exactly , dude.ismt worth what we.offered.him.to begin with , y'all are gonna flip it script when we sign him and he's making actual money still giving what he gives, which we have to because we can't replace him unless an extreme amount of luck comes out way.  

I think he's worth what we offered. 

 

7 minutes ago, Carmine said:

4/90 or sign and trade

I honestly agree but even then, 4/90 isn't going to be easy to move. 

[AHF]

47 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I disagree, I don't think it's as easy as everyone on the JC lovers train thinks it is. Everyone who loves JC swears we can package him in a blockbuster deal. I honestly think we want get shit in a trade for JC and it will just hurt us down the line. In fact, what we get via a SnT will be better than what we would get in a normal trade of JC. I just don't buy his trade value. We tried to trade him during the deadline and we didn't get anything great at all. His value is better than Eric Bledsoe out of Milwaukee but it's not close to D'Angelo Russell in the same situation going into his RFA year. He's inbetween them. His value is pretty much Malcolm Brogdon's but slightly less because he doesn't do the extremely valued things you need from a PF that MB does as a SG but he doesn't have the health questions like MB does which helps JC. 

If that's his value, I don't see him being the centerpiece of any blockbuster deal. Outside of Trae, I don't think we got anyone that would fit for a blockbuster deal. Maybe Hunter or Reddish potentially in the future but not right now. Reddish is currently seen a buy-low guy and Atlanta is only willing to move him for a legit superstar which is scust to others around the league. Hunter has more value but it's still not on the level of blockbuster either. To me, Jaylen Brown is a centerpiece of a blockbuster deal. We asked for him, they replied, they want Trae, lmao! I know Hawk fans, like all fans, we tend to be massive on our guys but no one outside of Trae has tremendous trade value right now and we aren't trading him so we just got a lot of guys on elite rookie deals. The minute we pay JC, his trade value drops substantially. We need to be realistic, we sign JC, the most with can trade him for is a similar contract and a lesser player or package of lesser players which doesn't help our cap and we might, get a 1st for all that. 

I don't think on a new deal that he will command any huge return in a trade either but that isn't my point.  My point is more that I do think he is an important player on the team and I don't see us getting a return that makes it worth giving him up.  I also don't see him becoming an absolute albatross on his next deal so if we need to just dump him to clear up cap room then I don't see that being a huge problem.  

Use your Malcom Brogdon example as you think his value on the trade market will be slightly less.  The Bucks dealt him and ended up with the pick that became RJ Hampton.  Big ******** deal.  RJ Hampton is not worth proactively marketing JC in a sign and trade to remove the risk of having to match a $117M contract.  

JC's trade value has already taken the value drop you talk about.  That drop happened once we didn't move him at the trade deadline last year.  Any team that gets him only gets his RFA rights which means they have to sign him to that new deal or risk losing him or they are getting him in a S&T where he would only agree to the S&T if he got the money he is asking for.  So I don't see a big gap between trade value today and trade value after we resign him.  Today a team that trades for him knows he turned down 4 years and $90M and will get something in the $100-117M range or they are willing to take him on a contract in that range on a S&T.  If we match a $117M offer for him, that just doesn't change the calculus a meaningful amount in terms of trade value.  

So if we end up passing on RJ Hampton for the privilege of paying JC for two years and then giving him away to another team, I'm perfectly fine with that for the possibility that he is important to us achieving greatness in the next few years and the chance that he could continue to improve and end up actually being worth the price of that next deal.  I just don't see us having a path to getting good replacement value for him either with the assets we'd get back in a trade or with what we could get on the FA market with our limited cap space.

[bleachkit]

JC is absolutely money on that face up jumper. That's pretty much his go to shot. He does not have the spectacular dunks as much anymore, but he did have a few in the playoffs, especially the one on Embiid. 

[macdaddy]

Not every decision is easy and some involve more than just 'he's not worth X amount'.   You're sending messages to the league and to the other players.   I'm not saying you just max everyone but you also can't cheap out.  We sent good messages by signing Bogi and Gallo and stocking up for a covid season and playoff run.  We can't just let JC walk.   I think we have to match pretty much anything but hopefully we pre-empt that with a high dollar shorter deal or a more reasonable long one.

[Spud2nique]

Can’t we just meet in the middle with JC. He wants 120 and we wanted to give him 90, so how about 105?

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, Spud2nique said:

Can’t we just meet in the middle with JC. He wants 120 and we wanted to give him 90, so how about 105?

done

[Watchman]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

That's not what his people are saying behind the scenes. They want a max deal. If they get it is one thing but they for sure want it 

What people?  I will take his word for it rather than some mysterious "people."

[Watchman]

12 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Not every decision is easy and some involve more than just 'he's not worth X amount'.   You're sending messages to the league and to the other players.   I'm not saying you just max everyone but you also can't cheap out.  We sent good messages by signing Bogi and Gallo and stocking up for a covid season and playoff run.  We can't just let JC walk.   I think we have to match pretty much anything but hopefully we pre-empt that with a high dollar shorter deal or a more reasonable long one.

It makes no sense to overpay Bogi and Gallo, but try to underpay Collins.

[bleachkit]

I still think 4/90 is a fair deal. 

[RandomFan]

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2021/7/6/22565069/travis-schlenk-atlanta-hawks-john-collins-free-agency-restricted-nba-offseason-roster

Tuesday morning when speaking live on 92.9 The Game, Atlanta Hawks general manager Travis Schlenk offered insight on a variety of topics surrounding the franchise this offseason. Perhaps most notably, Schlenk did shed a bit of light on how the Hawks will approach the John Collins situation next month when free agency opens.

“We’re going to sit down with John and his agent when we’re allowed to in August,” said Schlenk on 92.9. “We’ll start a dialogue, if we can come to a deal that we think is fair for both sides, for John and for the team, we’d love to hammer that out.”

“We won’t sit back and make him go get an offer,” Schlenk continued. “We’ll start negotiating when we’re able to, but as a restricted free agent he has the right to listen to our offer and then go around to talk to other teams as well.”