John Collins - Max kat, 90 million-4yrs kat, or Gallo salary kat

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm sure I read (per Travis Schlenk) that the plan is to develop his offensive game eventually at PF or did I dream that?  This was around the draft or during training camp

@thecampster @NBASupes

It's possible but the one thing i remember for sure is that they felt like he could develop a good jumper and extent his range based on his mechanics so i guess you could infer PF but also could just mean a stretch 5

[macdaddy]

 

 

[RandomFan]

14 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm sure I read (per Travis Schlenk) that the plan is to develop his offensive game eventually at PF or did I dream that?  This was around the draft or during training camp

@thecampster @NBASupes

Quote

Okongwu (6-foot-9, 245 pounds) primarily will play center, Schlenk said, especially at first. But he may eventually be able to play some power forward.

May eventually be able to play some power forward, meaning if he extends his shooting range to 3 point range he can maybe log some minutes there if needed. But he's a center first and foremost. 

EDIT TO ADD: If there is ever any hope of OO and Capela sharing the floor together, then that clearly hinges on OO's offensive development, haha. Cap is just never gonna have that kind of offensive game in his toolbelt. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by RandomFan

[JeffS17]

12 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

 

 

His low volume here is probably relevant because we mostly went to JC post-ups when he had severe mismatches.  That's not really the case for a lot of other guys that post up regularly.  Not trying to take away from his efficiency because he's been super efficient all season but the context matters.

[RandomFan]

13 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

May eventually be able to play some power forward, meaning if he extends his shooting range to 3 point range he can maybe log some minutes there if needed. But he's a center first and foremost. 

EDIT TO ADD: If there is ever any hope of OO and Capela sharing the floor together, then that clearly hinges on OO's offensive development, haha. Cap is just never gonna have that kind of offensive game in his toolbelt. 

DOUBLE EDIT: for transparency, I was reminded of this quote from Travis when OO was first drafted: “He’s an unbelievable person,” said Schlenk of Okongwu. “Since I’ve been here, we’ve said character is at the top of our list, and he certainly checks that box in a big way.”

One could come to the conclusion that JC also exhibits this kind of character that Travis seems to prize so highly. That would seem to lend credence to the thought that JC might in fact be in the Hawks long term plans, even at the expense of not being a perfect fit on the court. 

[RandomFan]

3 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

His low volume here is probably relevant because we mostly went to JC post-ups when he had severe mismatches.  That's not really the case for a lot of other guys that post up regularly.  Not trying to take away from his efficiency because he's been super efficient all season but the context matters.

Good point. Someone made the observation earlier that he really should try to add some of the things Randle was able to add. 

[JeffS17]

4 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

DOUBLE EDIT: for transparency, I was reminded of this quote from Travis when OO was first drafted: “He’s an unbelievable person,” said Schlenk of Okongwu. “Since I’ve been here, we’ve said character is at the top of our list, and he certainly checks that box in a big way.”

One could come to the conclusion that JC also exhibits this kind of character that Travis seems to prize so highly. That would seem to lend credence to the thought that JC might in fact be in the Hawks long term plans, even at the expense of not being a perfect fit on the court. 

If that's the case, and we "overpay" JC, I don't hate it.  I think Schlenk is really building out a special team right now and off-court chemistry matters a lot more than fans could ever know because we don't have that much visibility into it.

[thecampster]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm sure I read (per Travis Schlenk) that the plan is to develop his offensive game eventually at PF or did I dream that?  This was around the draft or during training camp

@thecampster @NBASupes

OO was always considered a F/C. Not a pure center.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

His low volume here is probably relevant because we mostly went to JC post-ups when he had severe mismatches.  That's not really the case for a lot of other guys that post up regularly.  Not trying to take away from his efficiency because he's been super efficient all season but the context matters.

I've been saying this but stat nerds love throwing out that stat like he's Embiid or KAT. 

1 minute ago, thecampster said:

OO was always considered a F/C. Not a pure center.

OO actually performed exactly what computer models thought he was. Crazy! 

[AHF]

3 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

Yeah I agree with this sentiment, but I also think Ressler has to be willing to pay both Hunter and/or Cam when their time comes.  If he's not prepared to do that, you have to make a decision on John.  Paying John is a good sign to me that Ressler is not talking out of his a** when he says he will go into the luxury.

I don't even think you have to unload John now if you aren't willing to pay all three.  I think John will be movable even if not for great return and that additional two years before they hit FA gives you plenty of time to see how they and JC develop and to have Gallo and others drop off the cap sheet.  Of course, I do hope Ressler is willing to pay all three.

2 hours ago, RandomFan said:

If JC or anyone considers $20m per year a lowball offer for JC then I'm sorry, but I think it's already a bit of an overpay for what he's worth. Especially based on the chatter Supes reported earlier today that he is hearing. For those that didn't see it, JC's perceived value has gone down around the league since that 4 yr $90m offer. 

Meh. Like I said above it really depends if Travis thinks JC and his desired salary are in the team's long term plans or not. If not, then getting what you can for him is the best option, no matter how underwhelming. I do think the best option is to match his best offer and run it back one more year just to see how far we can get. We can always trade him in the next offseason if it comes down to needing to move on from him. But if Travis knows JC isn't a long term Hawk and he can get a decent enough return now, I'm not opposed to that at all. 

I'm not certain JC's value has gone down around the league.  FA price is about supply and demand.  Look at the FAs on the market and then see what that translates into.  This seems like a weak class which might mean the value as reflected in the amount other teams are willing to offer might not  have changed much at all based on the smaller scoring and rebounding numbers this year combined with the improved defense.  However, if his value has actually gone down then that makes it an even safer bet to match whatever he ultimately gets on the market with both his value having declined and his RFA status depressing his salary.

For the reasons I stated above, I would absolutely not deal him for whatever you can get "no matter how underwhelming."  I think he will be movable and will provide significant value over the next two years as we try to compete with this roster and I don't see a viable path to landing a replacement for him.  So even if we planned to move him in two years, I would only trade him now if the value was real.  Would absolutely not move him for a pair of second round picks or something because that is all you can get.

[JayBirdHawk]

24 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

OO actually performed exactly what computer models thought he was. Crazy! 

He may have outperformed those computer models if he was healthy all year.  Excited for him.

[marco102]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

What is the point of giving him a 5th year player option?  If you are going to give him a big splashy number like $130M, then you have to make that last year a team option, don't you?  A 5th year player option just gives us all same security as a 4 year, $104M deal where he opts out and becomes an UFA if he turns out to be worth more (or just wants to move) but with the risk that he turns out to be an overpay and we are stuck for an unnecessary 5th year as he exercises the option to stay overpaid.

Seems to be what most of the players are getting these days. I agree with your assessment, but it seems like something like that may happen in the negotiations. I for sure would prefer the team option.

[agentorange90]

It's a really hard position for both Schlenk and Collins.  Collins obviously likes Atlanta and gets along and jells with his teammates.  For Schlenk Collins is a good face for the franchise and as the first point jells with the team.  Still Collins isn't worth max money.  He really struggled when he has tried to be a primary scoring option.  He has to improve his shooting.  He's really inconsistent with mid-range and 3 point shooting.  His best role is scoring in transition, pick-and-rolls, and offensive tip-ins.  I think if you're Schlenk you have a hard conversation with Collins and give him a modest contract offer without Collins becoming resentful.  I really don't think any team will out-match a modest non-max contract we offer Collins but then again I could be wrong. 

[bird_dirt]

53 minutes ago, AHF said:

I don't even think you have to unload John now if you aren't willing to pay all three.  I think John will be movable even if not for great return and that additional two years before they hit FA gives you plenty of time to see how they and JC develop and to have Gallo and others drop off the cap sheet.  Of course, I do hope Ressler is willing to pay all three.

THIS!!!

Thank you!

Wanting to get rid of him now because you don't think he's worth today what he will get paid (when there's nothing that his salary is blocking at present moment) is not smart. 

Pay him market value. Hopefully he'll continue developing as he has and his value will grow into that contract, or you move him when he is closer to blocking more valuable assets. 

[RandomFan]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

For the reasons I stated above, I would absolutely not deal him for whatever you can get "no matter how underwhelming."  I think he will be movable and will provide significant value over the next two years as we try to compete with this roster and I don't see a viable path to landing a replacement for him.  So even if we planned to move him in two years, I would only trade him now if the value was real.  Would absolutely not move him for a pair of second round picks or something because that is all you can get.

Hrmm, sounds familiar, heh. 

3 hours ago, RandomFan said:

Meh. Like I said above it really depends if Travis thinks JC and his desired salary are in the team's long term plans or not. If not, then getting what you can for him is the best option, no matter how underwhelming. I do think the best option is to match his best offer and run it back one more year just to see how far we can get. We can always trade him in the next offseason if it comes down to needing to move on from him. But if Travis knows JC isn't a long term Hawk and he can get a decent enough return now, I'm not opposed to that at all. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by RandomFan

[AHF]

42 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Seems to be what most of the players are getting these days. I agree with your assessment, but it seems like something like that may happen in the negotiations. I for sure would prefer the team option.

Or no fifth year or no option at all.

[RandomFan]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

OO was always considered a F/C. Not a pure center.

Tell that to Schlenk. He's the one that said it:

"Okongwu (6-foot-9, 245 pounds) primarily will play center, Schlenk said, especially at first. But he may eventually be able to play some power forward."

I feel at this point we're arguing semantics somewhat. We're all in agreement that OO "could" eventually play some PF, but he's pretty much a center right now. Whether you want to call that a C/F or not is semantics.

My pushback was from the perception that several people were seeming to think OO is currently an option at PF, or that it might be his eventual position. Currently he's not, and eventually he "might" be able to play some minutes there, but his best position is always going to be center. Unless you put him on a team with an Embiid or Gobert type of dominant defensive guy that can only play C. Which isn't likely. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by RandomFan

[JayBirdHawk]

32 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

"Okongwu (6-foot-9, 245 pounds) primarily will play center, Schlenk said, especially at first. But he may eventually be able to play some power forward."
I feel at this point we're arguing semantics somewhat. We're all in agreement that OO "could" eventually play some PF, but he's pretty much a center right now. Whether you want to call that a C/F or not is semantics. 
My pushback was from the perception that several people were seeming to think OO is currently an option at PF, or that it might be his eventual position. Currently he's not, and eventually he "might" be able to play some minutes there, but his best position is always going to be center

Especially at first is the quote that interests me - he has played full time center this past year.  This offseason should have him working on some PF skills.

He measured in at 6'-8" and 235lbs - he has an exceptional wingspan.  We can't keep playing small.

Edited: I'm hoping he has a growth spurt like Cam and end up at 6'-12"

[ATLHawks3]

17 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Especially at first is the quote that interests me - he has played full time center this past year.  This offseason should have him working on some PF skills.

He measured in at 6'-8" and 235lbs - he has an exceptional wingspan.  We can't keep playing small.

Edited: I'm hoping he has a growth spurt like Cam and end up at 6'-12"

Unlikely but if he does, we'll have a defensive unicorn.

[NBASupes]

I hope we can keep JC