Hunter is becoming Marv

[macdaddy]

2 hours ago, Final_quest said:

Agreed.  I also think the Huerter move is still a difficult one to judge, and is being heavily influence by his hot start and Bogi's injury recovery delay.  DM replaced Huerter and we needed draft capital back.  The FO is thinking Bogi was a top 6th man that will be ready to start the season and in many ways superior player to Huerter.  In a world where Bogi is back, plus we have AJ, where does Huerter fit? 

Also, even considering Huerter's start, we got a 1st round pick for him.  Is he worth two 1st rounders?  I still think the value of our return holds up. 

Just like trading Cam helped us get DM.  There will be a day we are really glad to have that pick in a trade or even if we use it in the draft.  TS draft results in the middle to late 1st round is pretty stellar.  

These are all fair points but for a young, really good player it would have been nice to get back a player better than Justin Holiday.  

[JayBirdHawk]

2 hours ago, Final_quest said:

DM replaced Huerter and we needed draft capital back.  The FO is thinking Bogi was a top 6th man that will be ready to start the season and in many ways superior player to Huerter.  In a world where Bogi is back, plus we have AJ, where does Huerter fit? 

I will always maintain my position that if the Hawks were able to get positive value back for a Bogi coming off knee surgery, he would have been the one traded in lieu of Kevin. Teams were most liking asking the Hawks for a 1st to 'salary dump' him.

[macdaddy]

18 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I will always maintain my position that if the Hawks were able to get positive value back for a Bogi coming off knee surgery, he would have been the one traded in lieu of Kevin. Teams were most liking asking the Hawks for a 1st to 'salary dump' him.

Maybe but Bogi's contract being 2 years shorter i think had a lot to do with it too.  Bogi's ends right when DJ needs to get paid. 

[JayBirdHawk]

8 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Maybe but Bogi's contract being 2 years shorter i think had a lot to do with it too.  Bogi's ends right when DJ needs to get paid. 

I just don't think the Hawks would be willing to pay to dump Bogi.

[Atlantaholic]

3 hours ago, Final_quest said:

Agreed.  I also think the Huerter move is still a difficult one to judge, and is being heavily influence by his hot start and Bogi's injury recovery delay.  DM replaced Huerter and we needed draft capital back.  The FO is thinking Bogi was a top 6th man that will be ready to start the season and in many ways superior player to Huerter.  In a world where Bogi is back, plus we have AJ, where does Huerter fit? 

Also, even considering Huerter's start, we got a 1st round pick for him.  Is he worth two 1st rounders?  I still think the value of our return holds up. 

Just like trading Cam helped us get DM.  There will be a day we are really glad to have that pick in a trade or even if we use it in the draft.  TS draft results in the middle to late 1st round is pretty stellar.  

I thought the move made sense at the time, but having Huerter breakout like this and Bogi sidelined definitely makes it look like a dumb decision any way you slice it. Also not sure if the front office was thinking Bogi would still be injured a month into the season, my guess is they thought he would be back by now, if they felt he would miss a siginificant amount of time I have a harder time understanding the decision.

[AHF]

23 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

I thought the move made sense at the time, but having Huerter breakout like this and Bogi sidelined definitely makes it look like a dumb decision any way you slice it. Also not sure if the front office was thinking Bogi would still be injured a month into the season, my guess is they thought he would be back by now, if they felt he would miss a siginificant amount of time I have a harder time understanding the decision.

My take on management's thinking:

1. Hawks were not going to pay the tax so they had to ditch Hunter, Huerter or Bogi;
2. Neither Huerter nor Bogi is a true SF and we needed more defense so Hunter wasn't going to go;
3. The team was probably indifferent to moving Bogi or Huerter but with Bogi being hurt and older they were not going to get anything back for him (and may have had to pay to move him) so you deal Huerter with the understanding that you get back a first round pick.
4. We had just drafted AJ which meant that he would never see the floor behind DM, Bogi and Huerter if people were healthy so dealing one of them also opened up the possibility of him earning minutes and reduced the risk if we had health issues.
5. While we could have waited and done this later, the team felt like that first round pick wasn't guaranteed to be there if we had to move one of them and so it was better to strike while the iron was hot and ensure that we didn't end up behind the 8 ball (such as a scenario where Huerter got hurt or teams knew we were desperate and low balled us).

I think it was fairly foreseeable that the team would want to move one of Bogi or Huerter after we got DM, especially given that we could get under the tax line.  But it is still clearly not a decision that can be understood strictly from a basketball perspective - the tax is the big driver.

[Spud2nique]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

My take on management's thinking:

1. Hawks were not going to pay the tax so they had to ditch Hunter, Huerter or Bogi;
2. Neither Huerter nor Bogi is a true SF and we needed more defense so Hunter wasn't going to go;
3. The team was probably indifferent to moving Bogi or Huerter but with Bogi being hurt and older they were not going to get anything back for him (and may have had to pay to move him) so you deal Huerter with the understanding that you get back a first round pick.
4. We had just drafted AJ which meant that he would never see the floor behind DM, Bogi and Huerter if people were healthy so dealing one of them also opened up the possibility of him earning minutes and reduced the risk if we had health issues.
5. While we could have waited and done this later, the team felt like that first round pick wasn't guaranteed to be there if we had to move one of them and so it was better to strike while the iron was hot and ensure that we didn't end up behind the 8 ball (such as a scenario where Huerter got hurt or teams knew we were desperate and low balled us).

I think it was fairly foreseeable that the team would want to move one of Bogi or Huerter after we got DM, especially given that we could get under the tax line.  But it is still clearly not a decision that can be understood strictly from a basketball perspective - the tax is the big driver.

You gotta switch stuff up. Huerter wasn’t working FOR US, he’s thriving there but I’ll take the exchange of getting DM and AJ for anything Huerter MIGHT HAVE DONE.

Having said that, I’m hoping Bogi comes back and pays dividends because honestly, to me he’s the moral lethal threat but not necessarily the better overall skillset player because Huerter is the better dimer, boarder, but I still think Bogi is one of the best marksman shooters in the game today.

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

You gotta switch stuff up. Huerter wasn’t working FOR US, he’s thriving there but I’ll take the exchange of getting DM and AJ for anything Huerter MIGHT HAVE DONE.

Having said that, I’m hoping Bogi comes back and pays dividends because honestly, to me he’s the moral lethal threat but not necessarily the better overall skillset player because Huerter is the better dimer, boarder, but I still think Bogi is one of the best marksman shooters in the game today.

If you take the cap out of things, you are making the wrong comparison.  It isn't adding DM and AJ.  It is adding Justin Holiday and Mo Harkless.  Without the cap, you could have just stuck it out and had DM, AJ, and Huerter. 

[Final_quest]

I'm really happy to see Huerter play well.  Also, I don't yet see the trade as a mistake.  Partially depends on how Bogi looks when he comes back.  

[Spud2nique]

21 hours ago, AHF said:

If you take the cap out of things, you are making the wrong comparison.  It isn't adding DM and AJ.  It is adding Justin Holiday and Mo Harkless.  Without the cap, you could have just stuck it out and had DM, AJ, and Huerter. 

And Bogi?

[Atlantaholic]

18 hours ago, Final_quest said:

I'm really happy to see Huerter play well.  Also, I don't yet see the trade as a mistake.  Partially depends on how Bogi looks when he comes back.  

There wouldn't be enough minutes for both of them with a healthy Bogi. But will Bogi ever be healthy? 

[AHF]

2 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

And Bogi?

And Bogi.  Basically, you have either:

DM, Bogi, Huerter, AJ, Hunter, JJ for minutes at the 2 and 3

or

DM, Bogi, JHoliday, AJ, Hunter, JJ for minutes at the 2 and 3

[NBASupes]

23 hours ago, AHF said:

If you take the cap out of things, you are making the wrong comparison.  It isn't adding DM and AJ.  It is adding Justin Holiday and Mo Harkless.  Without the cap, you could have just stuck it out and had DM, AJ, and Huerter. 

You got no one to blame but Tony. He's the one who writes the checks. He could have kept Kevin if winning was everything. 

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

You got no one to blame but Tony. He's the one who writes the checks. He could have kept Kevin if winning was everything. 

Agree.  This was purely a decision to avoid triggering the tax this year.  Maybe that actually is in service of winning in the long-term but it hurts for this season, especially in the context of our struggles shooting from range and Kev's red hot start to the season.

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

And Bogi.  Basically, you have either:

DM, Bogi, Huerter, AJ, Hunter, JJ for minutes at the 2 and 3

or

DM, Bogi, JHoliday, AJ, Hunter, JJ for minutes at the 2 and 3

Wait, that simple? With no salary or tax type of complications? 

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

Agree.  This was purely a decision to avoid triggering the tax this year.  Maybe that actually is in service of winning in the long-term but it hurts for this season, especially in the context of our struggles shooting from range and Kev's red hot start to the season.

I’m sorry I was under the impression for some reason that it was EITHER Bogi or Huerter. I had no idea we could have kept Huerter THAT EASILY with NO implications to future cap issues. 
 

BUT..

I will say this, the Sac offense is much like the Warriors because well their head coach was choir boy’s top assistant in the Yay and it’s a copycat league. So, for those surprised Kev is doing this, including myself on this, he always had this in his bag of tricks, he is just more of a focal point on offense in Sac town than he was here for us. They run n gun in Sac, more of a wide open game and Kev flourishes with space due to his shooting.

BUT… he still gets credit. He’s DOING it. Can’t take that away. Happy for him he was an awesome Hawk and I hope he will be one of the main reasons they become the best team in California. Love my rook Keegan Murray too. Him and AJ were my dudes. The only way I would have shipped out JC was for a chance at Keegan.

Go K(AWK)INGS!!!! GO HUERTAS!! @hazer where you bro I said HUERTAS and thought of you Hope you good my man.

[Final_quest]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

And Bogi.  Basically, you have either:

DM, Bogi, Huerter, AJ, Hunter, JJ for minutes at the 2 and 3

or

DM, Bogi, JHoliday, AJ, Hunter, JJ for minutes at the 2 and 3

I see it more like either:

DM, Bogi, Huerter, AJ, Hunter, JJ for minutes at the 2 and 3

or

DM, Bogi, JHoliday + 1st round pick - 3 years of Huerter's contract, AJ, Hunter, JJ for minutes at the 2 and 3
************************************************************

In the past few years a 1st round pick in a trade has gotten teams Jerami Grant twice (Portland and Detroit), Malcom Brogdon (Pacers to Bucks), and Christian Wood.  A 1st round pick is the most desireable trade asset.  

Also, even though Huerter is a value contract, it is still off the books.  
 

People are being too narrow if you look at it like we picked Holiday over Huerter to get salary relief.  You can get a nice player by trade a 1st round pick at the right time.  

[AHF]

19 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I see it more like either:

DM, Bogi, Huerter, AJ, Hunter, JJ for minutes at the 2 and 3

or

DM, Bogi, JHoliday + 1st round pick - 3 years of Huerter's contract, AJ, Hunter, JJ for minutes at the 2 and 3
************************************************************

In the past few years a 1st round pick in a trade has gotten teams Jerami Grant twice (Portland and Detroit), Malcom Brogdon (Pacers to Bucks), and Christian Wood.  A 1st round pick is the most desireable trade asset.  

Also, even though Huerter is a value contract, it is still off the books.  
 

People are being too narrow if you look at it like we picked Holiday over Huerter to get salary relief.  You can get a nice player by trade a 1st round pick at the right time.  

Taking away Huerter's contract is a negative.  He is a good value contract.  The issue is just the tax line.

I do agree that a first round pick has value but to me it is not equal to the difference in value between Holiday and Huerter.  Odds aren't particularly good that the FRP turns into something as good as Huerter.  In practice, we can't use it to flip for a vet like Grant, Brogdon, etc. if you aren't willing to pay the tax so that is of more limited value to us than it would be to a team that can take a salary like that.

[Final_quest]

7 hours ago, AHF said:

Taking away Huerter's contract is a negative.  He is a good value contract.  The issue is just the tax line.

I do agree that a first round pick has value but to me it is not equal to the difference in value between Holiday and Huerter.  Odds aren't particularly good that the FRP turns into something as good as Huerter.  In practice, we can't use it to flip for a vet like Grant, Brogdon, etc. if you aren't willing to pay the tax so that is of more limited value to us than it would be to a team that can take a salary like that.

No way.  It doesn't matter if it's a value contract.  If Bogi can't be moved, that means they are paying $32M for two backups at the same position.  You have to get rid of one.  Plus you have AJ Griffin that further duplicates the skillset.  So you may as well get something of value like a 1st round pick.  

A first round pick is the most valuable trade capital in the league.  You can use it to move up in the draft or to unload unwanted salary.      

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

No way.  It doesn't matter if it's a value contract.  If Bogi can't be moved, that means they are paying $32M for two backups at the same position.  You have to get rid of one.  Plus you have AJ Griffin that further duplicates the skillset.  So you may as well get something of value like a 1st round pick.  

A first round pick is the most valuable trade capital in the league.  You can use it to move up in the draft or to unload unwanted salary.      

You act like there aren’t championship teams in sports that try to stack depth.  We could easily afford all of them if willing to pay the tax.  They are a versatile group since KH and Bogi can also play SF. It isn’t that difficult to imagine.  
 

But I agree with your assessment since my starting assumption is r aren’t willing to pay the tax so one had to go.  Given Bogi’s injury history and current situation one could second guess whether a future first round pick was worth going with the injured guy but we’ll never know the terms of a hypothetical Bogi deal to compare them.