The cobbled together, stuff we held on to during the playoffs mega super rumor and team direction thread.

[JTB]

@Peoriabird if you feel Capela can do any of this please let us know…..

 

 

 

 

[sturt]

11 minutes ago, JTB said:

Collins cannot get these pts off his own ability. It always involves the elite passing of Trae. The only thing you can credit collins with is that he’s a fantastic and efficient shooter and finisher but ask him to beat his man off the dribble or take advantage of a 1 on 1 matchup and he can’t do it because he cannot create on his own.

Just not true, my friend. If he gets the ball at the foul line left or right or in that vicinity, he's done exactly what you're saying he never does.

Where you're accurate, from what I've seen, is when he receives the ball for a corner 3... if his man closes out effectively, JC doesn't have the ability to blow by him ordinarily.

There's a part of me that wishes we would trade JC just b/c he deserves better regard than he gets from too many ATL fans. But it's just a teensy weensy part.

[Diesel]

7 minutes ago, JTB said:

This is the problem when people look at stats and don’t watch the player. 
 

It’s the same exact reason Collins stat years where he avg 20 or close to it should be taken with a grain of salt because Collins cannot get these pts off his own ability. It always involves the elite passing of Trae. The only thing you can credit collins with is that he’s a fantastic and efficient shooter and finisher but ask him to beat his man off the dribble or take advantage of a 1 on 1 matchup and he can’t do it because he cannot create on his own.

Capela is the same way …he gets all his pts from strictly rim running. Capela cant work the post the way Ayton does. Capela cant score with his back to the basket consistently or even hit a 10 foot jumpers. Capela doesn’t have the touch Ayton has around the goal. You can’t judge a player because he wasn’t the main focal point of Teams offense once they traded for CP3. Ayton don’t shoot 3s he stays along the baseline and set screens. Ayton does what’s asked  ….suns offense game plan is to get good looks from the 3pt line not throw the ball down low and get post ups for Ayton. Suns rather play a live and die by the 3 type of offense opposed to a balanced one.

 
Hawks need a guy who can go get hard 2 when need be outside of Trae and not rely solely on Trae.

 

I agree with all the differences between Capela and Ayton that you mention except...  Ayton does  what he is asked to do...  yada yada.

The thing Holding Ayton back is Ayton.   Ayton's desire has been questioned since he was in HS.  You have this super skilled offensive C but he's got motivation issues.  That sounds like Marvin Williams to me. 

[JTB]

16 minutes ago, sturt said:

Just not true, my friend. If he gets the ball at the foul line left or right or in that vicinity, he's done exactly what you're saying he never does.

Where you're accurate, from what I've seen, is when he receives the ball for a corner 3... if his man closes out effectively, JC doesn't have the ability to blow by him ordinarily.

There's a part of me that wishes we would trade JC just b/c he deserves better regard than he gets from too many ATL fans. But it's just a teensy weensy part.

Sorry I just don’t see it. I think Collins could benefit in an unusual offensive role for PF that he will never get to experience here while McMillan is running the show.

In my opinion Collins could be PF version of Rip Hamilton. Get him some set plays where he receives the ball for pull up jumpers! Maybe even take one dribble in the play then pull up ….Collins would be deadly if he had plays ran for him but sadly he don’t get that here.

With Ayton you don’t need to run plays as the pick and roll or pick and pop is a go to play with Trae & Ayton every time down the court. It’s a completely different animal when your center doesn’t have to be right up under the goal to score or need an oop to score. Or post Ayton up along the baseline or throw him the ball at the top of the key and he can get you pts one way or the other.

[JTB]

12 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I agree with all the differences between Capela and Ayton that you mention except...  Ayton does  what he is asked to do...  yada yada.

The thing Holding Ayton back is Ayton.   Ayton's desire has been questioned since he was in HS.  You have this super skilled offensive C but he's got motivation issues.  That sounds like Marvin Williams to me. 

I disagree there is no Marvin Williams in Ayton. He is running the offense that’s designed. 

[Diesel]

20 minutes ago, JTB said:

I disagree there is no Marvin Williams in Ayton. He is running the offense that’s designed. 

Quote

Weaknesses: Defensive awareness needs to improve. For a player with such elite physical gifts, his shot blocking ability is curiously average (though he seemed to improve as freshman season progressed). He should be able to improve upon this over time, given the proper coaching and desire … Needs to do a better job guarding against the pick and roll. Can sometimes lose his man … Needs to do better as a help defender … Can get flat footed at times … And seemed to look to preserve energy (and fouls) on the defensive end … While capable of scoring at all three levels, jumper (inparticular shot selection) still needs improvement … Tends to shoot it a bit short and at times can rush his shot … Needs to follow through and also look to improve his touch around the basket … Needs to do a better job of commanding the ball inside and establishing position. He’s so big and strong that he will be very difficult to stop from extablishing position at the next level once his strength peaks out and he fully understands utilizing position and getting low … Sometimes is a bit passive and can be lazy at times, though he played with a solid level of energy for the most part throughout his college career …  Needs to do a better job contesting shots on the perimeter … Needs to do a better job scoring in traffic … If crowded, you can bother him and force him to take a difficult shot or turn the ball over … Will need to improve ability to handle double teams …

That's from NBADraft.Net

Quote

Weaknesses

• Mediocre defensive awareness. Misses rotations and occasionally takes plays off entirely. Good but not great shot-blocker who should improve with better positioning.

• Played out of position at power forward next to a pure center in Dusan Ristic, which may have been a setback in processing help defense and other principles.

• Prefers to elevate and go get the ball rather than box out his man, which will be harder to get away with in the NBA.

• Not consistent running the floor. Tends to trail the play and seek spot-up opportunities instead of getting out ahead for easy baskets.

• Had a reputation for dogging it in high school. Chance remains he reverts to his old ways and doesn’t fulfill his full potential.

That's from SI

Quote

Ayton rarely faces up to put the ball on the floor. He's confident in his jump shot, but he only made 37.5 percent of his jumpers. He tends to settle for outside shots instead of being patient and establishing better position in the paint. Ayton finished in the 36th percentile in pick-and-rolls, though it's worth noting Arizona's point guard play wasn't good. He'd also occasionally catch and hold while teammates stood and watched.

LA Times.

 

This might have been his last moments as a Sun...

What do you see?   
It's internal...

 

Here's my thoughts.  He played with the best PG possibly in the History of Basketball.... and so what we saw from him over the last few years is probably the best that we will ever see from him.  We can say the same of Clint when he played with CP3.

Ayton is a great offensive C but nobody talks about his lack of defense.   He's mediocre on defense (at best). 

 

This is not what we need. 

 

 

[sturt]

43 minutes ago, JTB said:

Sorry I just don’t see it.

Okay, fair enough.

Here's an example of what I mean...

 

And why it's so easily overlooked is that in 9 of JC's top 10 5-mans, he's on the floor with Trae. And it's self-evident the chemistry the two have together... JC's either going to be getting a lob, or he's going to lay back for a 3.

It's a different JC when he's been on the floor with a backup PG like Wright. He will get the occasional opportunity as he did in that clip to take his man to the paint and deliver. People scoff about the Mailman comparisons, but he really does sometimes make some contorted shots that would absolutely remind a neutral observer of Malone.

 

 

[Sothron]

2 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

So a hall of fame point guard and the coaches missed all of this untapped potential over a 2 year period? I'm assuming Paul and Booker would know a player when they saw one and both came to the conclusion he ain't it. How can everybody be wrong about this player???

So far you are the only one I'm seeing being wrong about this player. Do you actually watch the games? You do realize this guy has been a walking double double since his rookie year and he's only 23 years old, right? 

Oh, sorry, I forgot to speak in Peo speak. You do realize this guy has been a walking double double since his rookie year and he's only 23 years old, right????????????

[StonedDogs]

All this for a 5"11" 165lbs, Curry wannabe chucker pg who can not play defense, who has no lines in State Farm commercials with an old school, stubborn coach who was an assistant to an assistant defensive coach on a team in the "process" for 5 years. Sure Hawks, have it. 

 

Meanwhile Cavs are trending up with Garland. Pistons are trending up with Cunningham. True, young, floor generals 

[sturt]

Put me on the Lu Dort bandwagon, @Spud2nique.

I already have been on the Kenny Hustle, aka Kenrich Williams, bandwagon... in fact, iirc, was the conductor of that train last February.

 

I like Dort, not SGA, both b/c the price would be so much less damaging to the current roster, and b/c unlike SGA, some OKC press corps believe it would be very Presti-like to flip Dort for a draft pick.

Williams was said to be available for a FRP at the deadline, but there either were no takers or Presti was just measuring the market, or both. My opinion then was that he surely could be had for a #25-#30 pick, but perhaps even a #20-#30.

 

I don't have a clear, rational vision for how you get those two on to the 2022-23 roster. But I think those are assets that would make a significant impact, while their contracts would be manageable.

[Spud2nique]

5 minutes ago, sturt said:

not SGA,

How come not SGA?

5 minutes ago, sturt said:

Kenrich Williams, bandwagon..

Yup I remember you and Supes.

[sturt]

Just now, Spud2nique said:

How come not SGA?

 

 

6 minutes ago, sturt said:

both b/c the price would be so much less damaging to the current roster, and b/c unlike SGA, some OKC press corps believe it would be very Presti-like to flip Dort for a draft pick.

I see I didn't finish my thought... oops, sorry...

Meant to say... "unlike SGA he's plausibly available... and some OKC press corps..."

[Peoriabird]

4 hours ago, Sothron said:

So far you are the only one I'm seeing being wrong about this player. Do you actually watch the games? You do realize this guy has been a walking double double since his rookie year and he's only 23 years old, right? 

 

Ummm John Collins except Collins has had 2 20/10 seasons and he is only 6 months older. Has Ayton had even 1? Clint is a walking double double also but Clint will lead the league in rebounding and was 3rd in the league in blocked shots 2 years ago at half the price.  I guess none of that seems to matters to some.

[nathan2331]

5 hours ago, StonedDogs said:

All this for a 5"11" 165lbs, Curry wannabe chucker pg who can not play defense, who has no lines in State Farm commercials with an old school, stubborn coach who was an assistant to an assistant defensive coach on a team in the "process" for 5 years. Sure Hawks, have it. 

 

Meanwhile Cavs are trending up with Garland. Pistons are trending up with Cunningham. True, young, floor generals 

Is this a joke? You just named two guards that haven't even made the playoffs yet. 

[REHawksFan]

19 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

Is this a joke? You just named two guards that haven't even made the playoffs yet. 

Exhibit A of why this thread should be in the Senior Members forum.  

[JTB]

14 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Exhibit A of why this thread should be in the Senior Members forum.  

Annnnndddd here’s Exhibit B….

5 hours ago, StonedDogs said:

All this for a 5"11" 165lbs, Curry wannabe chucker pg who can not play defense, who has no lines in State Farm commercials with an old school, stubborn coach who was an assistant to an assistant defensive coach on a team in the "process" for 5 years. Sure Hawks, have it. 

 

Meanwhile Cavs are trending up with Garland. Pistons are trending up with Cunningham. True, young, floor generals 

 

[HawkingAwesome]

On 5/22/2022 at 11:06 AM, theheroatl said:

It’s amazing the confidence that some of you have in thinking that there are much higher ceilings for Cap, JC, Huerter, Bogi… maybe Hunter can get it together but he seems injury prone. It’s possible he can put it together like Kawhi but I’m not seeing the aggressiveness yet.

You can develop your team sure but at the end of the day Milwaukee acquired Jrue Holiday to put them over the edge. Same with Jimmy Butler. Championship teams that acquired via trade or free agency multiple stars is the norm not the exception. Rarely did they develop average players into stars. And Bogi Cap Dre JC and Huerter are average players right now in my eyes. I don’t have the confidence in any of those to go out there and win a finals game if Trae goes out. Caps degrading finishing around the rim and lack of a jump hook is an issue for him moving forward.

Once again for the back, we’re talking about championships not good seasons.

Raptors got a good group together for their run via a lot of transactions. Siakam was the one that benefited from Lowry, Kawhi, Serge, and Marc coming in.

I know some of y’all want to believe in the Pistons model but it rarely happens. We gotta be like Milwaukee and Toronto when they won and put it together for a championship. Or else maybe y’all don’t actually want a championship but would rather just see the good guys develop into good players and championship is not as important.

I WANT A DYNASTY

[Spud2nique]

12 minutes ago, HawkingAwesome said:

I WANT A DYNASTY

I just want a ring. Just one. Not greedy. I mean I’ll take a few … lol.

[terrell]

8 hours ago, sturt said:

Just not true, my friend. If he gets the ball at the foul line left or right or in that vicinity, he's done exactly what you're saying he never does.

Where you're accurate, from what I've seen, is when he receives the ball for a corner 3... if his man closes out effectively, JC doesn't have the ability to blow by him ordinarily.

There's a part of me that wishes we would trade JC just b/c he deserves better regard than he gets from too many ATL fans. But it's just a teensy weensy part.

"He deseves better".. 

Hawks fans get so attatched to average players.. Good grief..

Edited May 24, 2022 by terrell

[theheroatl]

Exactly, I'm not attached to any particular player but I believe Trae is a superstar (yeah yeah debatable by main stream media). 

Fans need to decide whether they want to win or like players personally because many times that clashes.

One thing is becoming clear.. we have some injury prone players.

Edited May 24, 2022 by theheroatl