Trae

[terrell]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

Let's compare their scoring:

Age 20

Trae .539% TS%  vs Westbrook .489% TS% // Net Trae +.050%

Age 21

Trae .595% TS% vs Westbrook .491% TS% // Net Trae +.104%

Age 22

Trae .589% TS% vs Westbrook .538% TS% // Net Trae +.051%

Age 23

Trae .603% TS% vs Westbrook .538% TS% // Net Trae +.065%

Age 24

Trae .538% TS% vs Westbrook .532% TS% // Net Trae +.006%

Objectively it isn't on scoring.

So he's kinda right.

If he's talking about this season....

Edited December 14, 2022 by terrell

[macdaddy]

Last season from the point we got through all the covid and most of the injuries in early january we finished the season 24-13.   Unfortunately we were really banged up in the playoffs also.  

Despite our frustrations as fans this year we have been a decent team so far and at full strength have the chance to be very good.  

There's a lot to consider about overall team performance the last 2 years.

Not like the other superstars are faring better.   Team wise what has Jokic, Luka, Ja accomplished?  Giannis was in his 4th year before he got out of the 1st round(coinciding with Bud's arrival).  

I just don't get blaming Trae because the team has had some struggles.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, bleachkit said:

Yea, we wanted a Giannis or a LeBron. We got a glorified Stephon Marbury.

Had we gotten Giannis, haters would have had him traded by his third year. 

 

[Diesel]

45 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

The argument sounds nice until it's confronted by FACTS!!!

[AHF]

20 minutes ago, terrell said:

So he's kinda right.

If he's talking about this season....

I entirely reject that.  First, he wasn't talking about this year.  He was saying they were basically the same player as scorers.  Relying just on this season's sample size (Trae's career low) and comparing that against the other player's same age season (Westbrook's career high) is like claiming Zubac is a better rebounder than Rudy Gobert because Gobert's age 25 season had him averaging 10.7 rebounds while Zubac has averaged 10.9 to start this year (ignoring the career averages of 11.7 for Gobert and 6.9 for Zubac).

There is zero value in relying entirely on a 25 game sample that runs contrary to the prior 200+ games of data unless you believe something has fundamentally changed that makes it unlikely the player will return to their career norm.

Trae has a career .578% TS%

At the same age, Westbrook had a career .520% TS%

Those are not remotely comparable.  I see no way to argue they are basically the same player as a scorer in good faith.  My assumption is that plainview did not do the research on this, not that he was making the argument aware they were so very different in terms of scoring efficiency.

[Plainview1981]

49 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

???

He's a volume scorer. This does not contradict what I'm saying.

The idea was to bring in Murray and to take pressure off Trae.

What has happened? Trae is taking more shots than last year and is less efficient. Trae is going to get up those shots regardless of who else is on the team and how well he is or isn't shooting.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Plainview1981

[Diesel]

24 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

Crabbe? He was already on the downward spiral when he got here, continued that trend while here and fell out of the league.

Cam seems to have the same issues he had while he was here. Just with less minutes in NY it appears.

I don't really know where Len is playing now.

But we might can establish that centers get some benefit from Tree's PG-Center centric offense.

I'm sure Bogi was very happy to get out of Sactown that first year, but last year he was closer to what he was for the Kings.

The Hawks are very Trae/ 1-5 pick n roll spammy oriented. I think just being out of that helped KH some...

But Trae's commitment to running an offense that isn't designed to basically just get him scoring opportunities or benefit his scoring game is questionable.

I didn't say that Trae himself was only good during that one playoff run. I said that the team's under himself outside of that one playoff run is very limited.

 

 

1. So NY has a Trae that is disrupting Cam??
2. Len is in Sactown with Kev... 
3. So now... it's a PG-C centric offense.... I thought you said the problem was Trae???
4.  Bogi had a Kev effect coming to Atlanta??  How is that possible playing with TRAE???  BTW,,, Last year, Bogi played on a bad knee...

Quote

“I’m still working on my conditioning, but I’m in pretty good shape. I thought I would be more tired, more sore,” Bogdanovic said about his legs. “I feel really good; I feel like my old self. I did have heavy legs in the second half, all the shots, all these curls I usually make weren’t there. Just gotta keep working.”

So now, Trae is the coach?  

Hots, it seems like you don't know what you're arguing.  One minute it's Trae, the next minute it's the offense.   The next minute, Bogi had his career year because he was happy to get out of Sacramento.   Same place where Kev is now?? They play the same position....  Irony. 

 

[Plainview1981]

10 minutes ago, Diesel said:

1. So NY has a Trae that is disrupting Cam??
2. Len is in Sactown with Kev... 
3. So now... it's a PG-C centric offense.... I thought you said the problem was Trae???
4.  Bogi had a Kev effect coming to Atlanta??  How is that possible playing with TRAE???  BTW,,, Last year, Bogi played on a bad knee...

So now, Trae is the coach?  

Hots, it seems like you don't know what you're arguing.  One minute it's Trae, the next minute it's the offense.   The next minute, Bogi had his career year because he was happy to get out of Sacramento.   Same place where Kev is now?? They play the same position....  Irony. 

 

Cam was a bust to start with. I blamed Schlenk for that.

Trae seemingly needs to rely on the 1-5 pick n roll too much. I don't know that he will be able to run an offense that isn't so 1-5 heavy. So, the offense and Trae can be both at fault because Trae seemingly needs to play that type offense. Which is not the best team oriented style.

It might turn out that KH is having a better year due to having a change of scenery as he probably wasn't happy to play in such a 1-5 heavy offense.

But... Yes, Trae does give some benefit to centers, but there are 3 other positions and you don't want to count on players like Deadmon and Lin being a little better than they usual. 

It's cool, but you don't win in the long term because players like Clint, Lin and Deadmon do a little better on offense. 

As for Bogi... He has been in the league for several years and his first year with the Hawks looks like the outlier.

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

As for Bogi... He has been in the league for several years and his first year with the Hawks looks like the outlier.

This comment makes sense to me.  You are looking at the larger sample size and saying that his few months of absolute red hot nova streaking was an outlier.  Correct.  This is also how you should be comparing Trae and Westbrook as scorers (i.e., not relying on a couple months of data that contradicts years of data).  They aren't comparable.  

[Sothron]

Why do people engage with trolls? Seriously, why? You know he's just here to show up every now and then to get off on trying to piss people off. Ignore them.

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

Cam was a bust to start with. I blamed Schlenk for that.

Trae seemingly needs to rely on the 1-5 pick n roll too much. I don't know that he will be able to run an offense that isn't so 1-5 heavy. So, the offense and Trae can be both at fault because Trae seemingly needs to play that type offense. Which is not the best team oriented style.

It might turn out that KH is having a better year due to having a change of scenery as he probably wasn't happy to play in such a 1-5 heavy offense.

But... Yes, Trae does give some benefit to centers, but there are 3 other positions and you don't want to count on players like Deadmon and Lin being a little better than they usual. 

It's cool, but you don't win in the long term because players like Clint, Lin and Deadmon do a little better on offense. 

As for Bogi... He has been in the league for several years and his first year with the Hawks looks like the outlier.

Just say PNR...  We used to run the 1-4 PNR.. which led to JC's allstar like numbers.   But.. O... I'm not supposed to mention Trae making players better I suppose.     Most of your argument centers around the offense and not necessarily around Trae.   You suggested that Trae is a volume shooter like Westbrook.. but then most of the "BLAME" is on the 1-5 PNR...  Which is not Trae. 

Secondly... And this is the problem that you have... 

You want to blame the coach, the GM, and Trae.  and say that it's because Trae is a volume scorer who doesn't share the ball. 

Well, if the GM got Trae better players.... wouldn't it happen that they would put up better stats than our current players who, Like you said about Cam, are busts?

Magically, Bogi's first year with the Hawks is an outlier and Kev's first year with the Kings is PROOF...  OK.. 

[Plainview1981]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

This comment makes sense to me.  You are looking at the larger sample size and saying that his few months of absolute red hot nova streaking was an outlier.  Correct.  This is also how you should be comparing Trae and Westbrook as scorers (i.e., not relying on a couple months of data that contradicts years of data).  They aren't comparable.  

We know that Trae is a better shooter than RW, but it's the same kind of attitude... The same sort of "I'm gunna get mine no matter what" type of mindset. That same sort of thing where when what he is doing isn't working he will just keep on ahead like running into a brick wall because he can't truly accept anything else or any other way.

Now, I should have noted that Trae is a better overall shooter than RW and not just a better FT shooter. Fine, blast me for not being clear on that. But they have a very similar me approach.

[Plainview1981]

6 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Why do people engage with trolls? Seriously, why? You know he's just here to show up every now and then to get off on trying to piss people off. Ignore them.

"I don't like what you say, therefore you are a troll."

Who could argue with that logic?

Edited December 14, 2022 by Plainview1981

[Diesel]

7 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

The same sort of "I'm gunna get mine no matter what" type of mindset. That same sort of thing where when what he is doing isn't working he will just keep on ahead like running into a brick wall because he can't truly accept anything else or any other way.

Yeah, those kind of guys can't be happy for anybody else because they are so self centered....

O.. Wait...

 

 

[Diesel]

Surely Selfish Trae has to shoot the game winner.... you know one of those halfcourt bombs...   O... Wait... 

[JayBirdHawk]

14 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Magically, Bogi's first year with the Hawks is an outlier and Kev's first year with the Kings is PROOF...  OK..

Makes sense in an alternate reality for some doesn't it?

What's good for the goose should be good for the gander - but not when it comes to the Hawks.

[Plainview1981]

23 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Just say PNR...  We used to run the 1-4 PNR.. which led to JC's allstar like numbers.   But.. O... I'm not supposed to mention Trae making players better I suppose.     Most of your argument centers around the offense and not necessarily around Trae.   You suggested that Trae is a volume shooter like Westbrook.. but then most of the "BLAME" is on the 1-5 PNR...  Which is not Trae. 

Secondly... And this is the problem that you have... 

You want to blame the coach, the GM, and Trae.  and say that it's because Trae is a volume scorer who doesn't share the ball. 

Well, if the GM got Trae better players.... wouldn't it happen that they would put up better stats than our current players who, Like you said about Cam, are busts?

Magically, Bogi's first year with the Hawks is an outlier and Kev's first year with the Kings is PROOF...  OK.. 

I did not write off the possibility that it might turn out that KH's season this year might turn out to be a "change of scenery" type of situation. We'll see on that. But right now he is playing better than before.

So there is no hypocrisy there. It's looking at the evidence for what it is.

Bogi had a career shooting year his first year with the team and then went back to normal last year. KH's second year is obviously unknown. So I can only go by what he has done up to this point.

I've thrown blame at multiple people. I even said that Schlenk is the main one to blame. 

But that doesn't mean that Trae carries no blame in regards to the mediocrity that the franchise has suffered from since he has been here.

Coaching is also to blame, but can and would Trae be open to running a system that isn't so simple and predictable?

I have my doubts. He hasn't been that receptive to playing off the ball more for instance.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Plainview1981

[Plainview1981]

14 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Yeah, those kind of guys can't be happy for anybody else because they are so self centered....

O.. Wait...

 

 

He is going to say they publicly. But Murray was brought here to take the pressure off Trae, but Trae has responded to taking more shots than before and not changing his game in any other way.

[Plainview1981]

19 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Surely Selfish Trae has to shoot the game winner.... you know one of those halfcourt bombs...   O... Wait... 

One can cherry pick this one play or that one play, but I'm talking about a general approach to the game not this one play or that one play.

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

I did not write off the possibility that it might turn out that KH's season this year might turn out to be a "change of scenery" type of situation. We'll see on that. But right now he is playing better than before.

So there is no hypocrisy there. It's looking at the evidence for what it is.

Bogi had a career shooting year his first year with the team and then went back to normal last year. KH's second year is obviously unknown. So I can only go by what he has done up to this point.

I've thrown blame at multiple people. I even said that Schlenk is the main one to blame. 

But that doesn't mean that Trae carries no blame in regards to the mediocrity that the franchise has suffered from since he has been here.

Coaching is also to blame, but can and would Trae be open to running a system that isn't so simple and predictable?

I have my doubts. He hasn't been that receptive to playing off the ball more for instance.

I don't know how you do such a complete job of skipping conditions and context...

you must be a bill collector because you don't care about anything that is going on... only the beginning and the end. 

So the fact that Bogi admitted that last year he said he played injured... on a knee that needed surgery...  And this year... (small sample size), he's hitting 39% from three and it's trending upward.

Secondly..  you can't blame everybody... equally that's your problem. 

You say that it's Trae fault... that we're not winning and that the one year we did win is "Just an outlier".

However, last year, we were mostly injured.  Made a strong run when we got healthy and limped into the playoffs.

You blame Trae for that. 

You blame Trae for his teammates not doing better (except when they do do better) and when they do do better and have career years playing with Trae.. it's because of the offense or it's because of the Change of scenery??

 

Is change of scenery even a thing??   Kev's new success is Trae's fault.   Trae was holding him down...  That's what you said.. then you say here... well, KH may be in a change of scenery type situation.   WTF is that?  Whoose at fault for change of scenery?  Is the old scenery the problem?  Is the new scenery a good thing?

 So players change scenery all the time.  Does that mean that they play better?

What happens when change of scenery yields bad results?  Is change of scenery a thing?  Pat Bev changes scenery all the time.  He should be the best player in the world by now...