Trae

[kg01]

11 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Grrrr  

Oh sorry I thought you said ..

I think I need internet anger management.  Do you have office hours, squd? 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

Grrrr  

Oh sorry I thought you said ..

 

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

I think I need internet anger management.  Do you have office hours, squd? 

Both of you need to come to therapy in our special place.

[hylndr11]

Problem it seems we need some specific things when Trae as our guy, the rest of the league now knows that so they have the leverage in trades etc,  I still feel like Travis knew this and is more being hamstrung by ownership. but either way, if this is what the hawks, are ownership will see quickly what its like owning an ATL pro sports team thats been here for decasdes without a chip, we dont show up for mediocre for very long, which we shouldnt be.  End of the day, if by some way we could get out from under Trae for the sake of this conversation - how does it look with AJ at the 2 and DJ at point and keeping everyone else.   Basically just replaced Trea and Kevin for DJ and Griffin.  Granted AJ got work to do for sure but long term is it somthing we can work with? my observation is we would still have a midrange issue with DJ unless somehow we can get the paint unclogged more. 

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, hylndr11 said:

Problem it seems we need some specific things when Trae as our guy, the rest of the league now knows that so they have the leverage in trades etc,  I still feel like Travis knew this and is more being hamstrung by ownership. but either way, if this is what the hawks, are ownership will see quickly what its like owning an ATL pro sports team thats been here for decasdes without a chip, we dont show up for mediocre for very long, which we shouldnt be.  End of the day, if by some way we could get out from under Trae for the sake of this conversation - how does it look with AJ at the 2 and DJ at point and keeping everyone else.   Basically just replaced Trea and Kevin for DJ and Griffin.  Granted AJ got work to do for sure but long term is it somthing we can work with? my observation is we would still have a midrange issue with DJ unless somehow we can get the paint unclogged more. 

I think we would be fools to give upon Trae.  We've spent the last 30 years waiting for someone like him.  He just turned 24 a few months ago.  Let's play this out.

[hylndr11]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think we would be fools to give upon Trae.  We've spent the last 30 years waiting for someone like him.  He just turned 24 a few months ago.  Let's play this out.

Ofcourse - but what does that look like ? is "play this out" mean ?  The rest of the year? Or are we seeing more clearly what we have in Trae, ? I have no issue with him and want to see him succeed.  But lets say he is a very specific player that requires a lot of certain things to be succcessful which may not be realistic, then what are our options.  

[AHF]

Just now, hylndr11 said:

Ofcourse - but what does that look like ? is "play this out" mean ?  The rest of the year? Or are we seeing more clearly what we have in Trae, ? I have no issue with him and want to see him succeed.  But lets say he is a very specific player that requires a lot of certain things to be succcessful which may not be realistic, then what are our options.  

I want to see the prime of his career play out in Atlanta.  I'm all in for the next 5 years unless we get offered a true star in return at which point you examine the trade on its merits like you do with any other player.  But I don't want to downgrade from Trae, DM and AJ to DM and AJ.  I don't think that "solves" anything for us.  Trae is already putting up some historic numbers and was the engine behind the best post-season performance in Atlanta history.  If we end up falling short of our potential for the next 5 years, I'm much happier to see that happen than to give up on the potential for something really special.  I've already lived through almost 40 years of Hawks basketball and seen a lot of teams whose potential didn't approach this group.  

I think all our alternatives are very unattractive unless you get a true star back for Trae.

[JayBirdHawk]

8 minutes ago, hylndr11 said:

Ofcourse - but what does that look like ? is "play this out" mean ?  The rest of the year? Or are we seeing more clearly what we have in Trae, ? I have no issue with him and want to see him succeed.  But lets say he is a very specific player that requires a lot of certain things to be succcessful which may not be realistic, then what are our options.  

Prime occurs around age 27-28 years - so that's my 'play out'.  

I actually want to see 'someone' else step up and be the 'Ying to Trae's Yang' - I want more talent, not less.

[Diesel]

29 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think we would be fools to give upon Trae.  We've spent the last 30 years waiting for someone like him.  He just turned 24 a few months ago.  Let's play this out.

As soon as we get a superstar... the welfare generation starts thinking of ways to get rid of him....

Typical.

 

[Gray Mule]

As all you guys and gals who have been around for a few years know.  Atlanta was always looking for two things:  A big center and a PG.  We had players who played the PG position but not the way we wanted.  Then, along comes Trae.  He's not perfect.  Far from it.

He's the best PG that the Hawks have had since they came to State of Georgia, city of Atlanta!  We are not giving him up without a fight.  We waited too long.

(That big center I want plays for the Hornet's G League team)

Edited December 13, 2022 by Gray Mule

[Wretch]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

As soon as we get a superstar... the welfare generation starts thinking of ways to get rid of him....

Typical.

 

[Plainview1981]

18 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Prime occurs around age 27-28 years - so that's my 'play out'.  

I actually want to see 'someone' else step up and be the 'Ying to Trae's Yang' - I want more talent, not less.

This isn't a linear thing... Collins is only 25, but he peaked like 3 seasons ago.

Trae is Westbrook with worse defense, worse rebounding and better FT shooting. 

[Plainview1981]

17 hours ago, Diesel said:

As soon as we get a superstar... the welfare generation starts thinking of ways to get rid of him....

Typical.

 

40% shooting... Mostly mediocre record, drama queen. Worse defense imaginable. He is a fake superstar like Murbury and Francis were during their primes. I think we've already seem the best Trae has. He isn't as big late in games as he used to be. The league h as figured out how to limit his effectiveness. 

[JayBirdHawk]

14 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

This isn't a linear thing... Collins is only 25, but he peaked like 3 seasons ago.

Trae is Westbrook with worse defense, worse rebounding and better FT shooting. 

disagree

[Plainview1981]

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

disagree

That's fine, but I think the evidence is on my side. This is his 5th season and outside of one good playoff run the results haven't been very good.

Instead, he now seems to be causing more problems and he hasn't been the same Miami owned him in the playoffs last year. 

I'm not saying that it's all his fault, but nobody is really thriving under him. KH is playing better after getting out from under him.

I still maintain that Schlenk's the biggest issue. He has botched nearly ever pick he has made. OO looks like mediocrity, Hunter is mediocre, Cam busted. Trae will never be as good of a talent as Luka. He should have been fired already.

But I think we have already seen the best Trae. He isn't going to get any better at his weaknesses. He can't even adjust to playing off the ball more because he is what he is... A ball hogging volume scorer.

[Diesel]

19 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

That's fine, but I think the evidence is on my side. This is his 5th season and outside of one good playoff run the results haven't been very good.

Instead, he now seems to be causing more problems and he hasn't been the same Miami owned him in the playoffs last year. 

I'm not saying that it's all his fault, but nobody is really thriving under him. KH is playing better after getting out from under him.

I still maintain that Schlenk's the biggest issue. He has botched nearly ever pick he has made. OO looks like mediocrity, Hunter is mediocre, Cam busted. Trae will never be as good of a talent as Luka. He should have been fired already.

But I think we have already seen the best Trae. He isn't going to get any better at his weaknesses. He can't even adjust to playing off the ball more because he is what he is... A ball hogging volume scorer.

Small sample size.  What happen to Reddish?    what happened to Crabbe?  What happened to Len?    They never got better.  How about Clint Capela since he's gotten here?    Coming here.... Clint went from 13.9/13.8 to 15.3/14.3 in less minutes.   Dedmon had his best statistical years of his career playing with Trae. 

Whereas you say he hasn't been good outside of one year... what was last year?  Lead the league in scoring and assists. 

Now about KH... KH is playing better under a different scheme.   In Sactown, they made KH get off the three point line.   Last year he averaged 0.9 FT/game.  Now He's averaging 2.3 FT/3.  That's over a 200% increase.  His shooting is definitely better... but how is his FG% Trae's fault?  Are you saying that Trae was a bad shooting coach for Kev?  Or is it that Kev has a better compliment of players on the floor in a scheme that allows him to get more open looks?  I mean, Fox, Sabonis, and Murray all have gravity.    Kev is not always looking over his shoulder to be subbed by Bogi.   And Kev may have decided that he would do more than just stay on the three point line and avoid contact. 

BTW... Bogi.. How did Bogi get statistically better playing with Trae?  I mean, Trae is this negative force right... but Bogi had his career best year playing beside Trae?  Why is that?

Bottom line...  The real outlier seems to be our performance vs. Miami in last years playoffs.   We went in injured and they took advantage of us.  Simple as that.   We're injured now... I guess that means that this is your time to wag your finger and say how bad Trae has played.  Cool...  Keep that same energy. 

 

 

 

[bleachkit]

19 hours ago, Diesel said:

As soon as we get a superstar... the welfare generation starts thinking of ways to get rid of him....

Typical.

 

Yea, we wanted a Giannis or a LeBron. We got a glorified Stephon Marbury.

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, Plainview1981 said:

ball hogging volume scorer.

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, Plainview1981 said:

That's fine, but I think the evidence is on my side.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, Plainview1981 said:

Trae is Westbrook with worse defense, worse rebounding and better FT shooting. 

Let's compare their scoring:

Age 20

Trae .539% TS%  vs Westbrook .489% TS% // Net Trae +.050%

Age 21

Trae .595% TS% vs Westbrook .491% TS% // Net Trae +.104%

Age 22

Trae .589% TS% vs Westbrook .538% TS% // Net Trae +.051%

Age 23

Trae .603% TS% vs Westbrook .538% TS% // Net Trae +.065%

Age 24

Trae .538% TS% vs Westbrook .532% TS% // Net Trae +.006%

1 hour ago, Plainview1981 said:

That's fine, but I think the evidence is on my side. 

Objectively it isn't on scoring.

[Plainview1981]

54 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Small sample size.  What happen to Reddish?    what happened to Crabbe?  What happened to Len?    They never got better.  How about Clint Capela since he's gotten here?    Coming here.... Clint went from 13.9/13.8 to 15.3/14.3 in less minutes.   Dedmon had his best statistical years of his career playing with Trae. 

Whereas you say he hasn't been good outside of one year... what was last year?  Lead the league in scoring and assists. 

Now about KH... KH is playing better under a different scheme.   In Sactown, they made KH get off the three point line.   Last year he averaged 0.9 FT/game.  Now He's averaging 2.3 FT/3.  That's over a 200% increase.  His shooting is definitely better... but how is his FG% Trae's fault?  Are you saying that Trae was a bad shooting coach for Kev?  Or is it that Kev has a better compliment of players on the floor in a scheme that allows him to get more open looks?  I mean, Fox, Sabonis, and Murray all have gravity.    Kev is not always looking over his shoulder to be subbed by Bogi.   And Kev may have decided that he would do more than just stay on the three point line and avoid contact. 

BTW... Bogi.. How did Bogi get statistically better playing with Trae?  I mean, Trae is this negative force right... but Bogi had his career best year playing beside Trae?  Why is that?

Bottom line...  The real outlier seems to be our performance vs. Miami in last years playoffs.   We went in injured and they took advantage of us.  Simple as that.   We're injured now... I guess that means that this is your time to wag your finger and say how bad Trae has played.  Cool...  Keep that same energy. 

 

 

 

Crabbe? He was already on the downward spiral when he got here, continued that trend while here and fell out of the league.

Cam seems to have the same issues he had while he was here. Just with less minutes in NY it appears.

I don't really know where Len is playing now.

But we might can establish that centers get some benefit from Tree's PG-Center centric offense.

I'm sure Bogi was very happy to get out of Sactown that first year, but last year he was closer to what he was for the Kings.

The Hawks are very Trae/ 1-5 pick n roll spammy oriented. I think just being out of that helped KH some...

But Trae's commitment to running an offense that isn't designed to basically just get him scoring opportunities or benefit his scoring game is questionable.

I didn't say that Trae himself was only good during that one playoff run. I said that the team's under himself outside of that one playoff run is very limited.