Trae

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

One can cherry pick this one play or that one play, but I'm talking about a general approach to the game not this one play or that one play.

Oh, you mean this one play showing Trae assist another player???

Nah...  He does it about 9.5 times per game.  He's actually second in the league in assisting other players....

He has already become our franchise leader in assisting other players per game.... By a WIDE Margin.   Jeff Teague played for the Hawks for 6 yrs, Trae has already passed him in total assists in his 5th yr.  By the end of this year, barring injury, Trae should be the franchise leader in assists.     Mookie played 7 seasons and Doc played 8 seasons as a Hawk.. Trae will pass them by April. 

But I know.. that doesn't mean anything right??

 

[Final_quest]

18 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

He is going to say they publicly. But Murray was brought here to take the pressure off Trae, but Trae has responded to taking more shots than before and not changing his game in any other way.

You have to realize Trae is playing with the bench unit regularly this year.  That means prior to Bogi and AJ coming online he played with the Holidays, Jalen, and Okongwu.  Then he played with AJ, Forrest, Jalen, and Okongwu.  Hardly anyone on the bench would take shots.  
We've long determined that when Trae tries to facilitate and not look for his shot, we play worse.  

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

You have to realize Trae is playing with the bench unit regularly this year.  That means prior to Bogi and AJ coming online he played with the Holidays, Jalen, and Okongwu.  Then he played with AJ, Forrest, Jalen, and Okongwu.  Hardly anyone on the bench would take shots.  
We've long determined that when Trae tries to facilitate and not look for his shot, we play worse.  

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Plainview1981 said:

We know that Trae is a better shooter than RW, but it's the same kind of attitude... The same sort of "I'm gunna get mine no matter what" type of mindset. That same sort of thing where when what he is doing isn't working he will just keep on ahead like running into a brick wall because he can't truly accept anything else or any other way.

Now, I should have noted that Trae is a better overall shooter than RW and not just a better FT shooter. Fine, blast me for not being clear on that. But they have a very similar me approach.

I'm really struggling to process this one.  Lots of guys tried to duplicate Jordan's mindset and attitude.  It worked for Jordan because of how efficient he was.  It didn't work for less efficient scorers.  How effective someone is at a given skill is highly relevant to whether an approach makes sense for them.  Two guys who have the same approach but are very different in effectiveness cannot be said to be similar players.  That is like saying Josh Smith liked to shoot lots of 3's so he and Dirk must be the same player since they had a very similar approach.

Dirk had a career .577% TS%.  Trae has a career .578% TS%.

Josh had a career .504% TS% .  Westbrook has a career .526% TS%.

If someone is well above league average at a skill you generally want them to do more of it.  If someone is below league average at a skill you generally don't want them to do a lot of it.  So one person doing a lot of something is a virtue while someone else doing a lot of the same thing is a sin.

[macdaddy]

1 hour ago, Plainview1981 said:

He is going to say they publicly. But Murray was brought here to take the pressure off Trae, but Trae has responded to taking more shots than before and not changing his game in any other way.

I think this is just pace.  Murray is taking as many shots as he did last year.  Hunter is taking more.  JC is down a little. 

I think they figure out how to play together but it's been a bit of a mixed bag so far i agree.

[Plainview1981]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Oh, you mean this one play showing Trae assist another player???

Nah...  He does it about 9.5 times per game.  He's actually second in the league in assisting other players....

He has already become our franchise leader in assisting other players per game.... By a WIDE Margin.   Jeff Teague played for the Hawks for 6 yrs, Trae has already passed him in total assists in his 5th yr.  By the end of this year, barring injury, Trae should be the franchise leader in assists.     Mookie played 7 seasons and Doc played 8 seasons as a Hawk.. Trae will pass them by April. 

But I know.. that doesn't mean anything right??

 

That doesn't mean that he runs a structurally sound unselfish offense. Harden leads the league in assists this year.

I understand that Trae isn't going anywhere. Most of the normie people don't really understand anything beyond highlights and name recognition, and the Hawks haven't had anyone in decades that move the needle in regards to attendance.

So they have to stick with Trae for the foreseeable future, but there is no reason to expect any real team success for any real time period.

My opinion.

[Plainview1981]

58 minutes ago, AHF said:

I'm really struggling to process this one.  Lots of guys tried to duplicate Jordan's mindset and attitude.  It worked for Jordan because of how efficient he was.  It didn't work for less efficient scorers.  How effective someone is at a given skill is highly relevant to whether an approach makes sense for them.  Two guys who have the same approach but are very different in effectiveness cannot be said to be similar players.  That is like saying Josh Smith liked to shoot lots of 3's so he and Dirk must be the same player since they had a very similar approach.

Dirk had a career .577% TS%.  Trae has a career .578% TS%.

Josh had a career .504% TS% .  Westbrook has a career .526% TS%.

If someone is well above league average at a skill you generally want them to do more of it.  If someone is below league average at a skill you generally don't want them to do a lot of it.  So one person doing a lot of something is a virtue while someone else doing a lot of the same thing is a sin.

Trae has been doing his thing for over 4 seasons and the results aren't that great from a winning perspective.

Yes, there are different reasons why that is the case. I've complained about management as much as anybody.

But after 4 seasons and change I have the opinion that Trae creates as many issues as he solves. On court anyway.

[Plainview1981]

2 hours ago, Final_quest said:

You have to realize Trae is playing with the bench unit regularly this year.  That means prior to Bogi and AJ coming online he played with the Holidays, Jalen, and Okongwu.  Then he played with AJ, Forrest, Jalen, and Okongwu.  Hardly anyone on the bench would take shots.  
We've long determined that when Trae tries to facilitate and not look for his shot, we play worse.  

There is a point here about the bench being thin. We'll see how much Bogi changes things. Provided he is able to stay in the line up.

[Gray Mule]

Plainview1981  - I agree.  Hawks haven't won as I would like for them to do.  Seems that we get one thing fixed just as something else goes "flooey!" and it's fight and scratch to get any wins.

Hawks have had lots of good players - - Just not a lot of great players.  Trae alone is not the answer.  As good as he sometimes is, others must do their part.  The last game he played was his best of this season.  He was so beat up he didn't play in the last game and is listed as a game time decision tonight.  Callins is the only one listed as "out."

There still seems to be something missing.  Can't tell exactly what.  But it's not there.

[JayBirdHawk]

27 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

Collins is the only one listed as "out."

DJ is also out 

[Gray Mule]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

DJ is also out 

I just saw this.  He wasn't listed on the ESPN rreport.  I didn't think he was coming back this soon.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, Plainview1981 said:

Trae has been doing his thing for over 4 seasons and the results aren't that great from a winning perspective.

Yes, there are different reasons why that is the case. I've complained about management as much as anybody.

But after 4 seasons and change I have the opinion that Trae creates as many issues as he solves. On court anyway.

That is wholly different than claiming Trae is basically the same as a scorer as Russell Westbrook.  They are extremely different due to their efficiency.  That is the whole reason we are all upset with his shooting this season - because he has been shooting more like Russell Westbrook.  But 25 games of that doesn't make him an equivalent scorer to Westbrook.

(I'll note that Dirk had two winning seasons, two losing seasons and exactly two wins outside of the first round of the playoffs and that he didn't win a ring until his 13th season in the league.  Just reasons why we might want to give this more time to bake before deciding to just scrap the idea of Trae leading a team to anywhere significant.)

[Plainview1981]

22 minutes ago, AHF said:

That is wholly different than claiming Trae is basically the same as a scorer as Russell Westbrook.  They are extremely different due to their efficiency.  That is the whole reason we are all upset with his shooting this season - because he has been shooting more like Russell Westbrook.  But 25 games of that doesn't make him an equivalent scorer to Westbrook.

(I'll note that Dirk had two winning seasons, two losing seasons and exactly two wins outside of the first round of the playoffs and that he didn't win a ring until his 13th season in the league.  Just reasons why we might want to give this more time to bake before deciding to just scrap the idea of Trae leading a team to anywhere significant.)

I'm not blaming it all in Trae. There is plenty of blame to go around. You can't maintain winning with bad leadership at the top.

I push the idea of trading Trae sometimes. I don't run from that, but I'm more open to canning Schlenk first and see what can be done with bettér management.

As for Trae... Considering this RW shooting started in the playoffs, I wonder if this is just some kind of hangover that he can't shake or what.

If this is what Trae will be going forward I think moving him should become part of the agenda at some point.

We'll see I guess.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Plainview1981

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Plainview1981 said:

I'm not blaming it all in Trae. There is plenty of blame to go around. You can't maintain winning with bad leadership at the top.

I push the idea ofvm trading Trae sometimes. I don't run from that, but I'm more open to canning Schlenk first and see what can be done with bettér management.

As for Trae... Considering this RW started in the playoffs I wonder if this is just some kind of hangover that he can't shake or what.

Sorry - what is RW?

Quote

If this is what Trae will be going forward, moving him should become part of the agenda at some point.

We'll see I guess.

If you mean a .538% TS% scorer, I just don't see why you think Trae would be what he has been over the first 25 games this year when you have 3 years of him being a dramatically better scorer. 

If  you mean in the big picture him being nothing more than what he has been the last 3 years because you think he won't develop from here and that what he has been isn't worth wanting on the roster, then I could wrap my head around that perspective even if I don't agree with the assumptions or conclusion.

[Wretch]

4 hours ago, Final_quest said:

You have to realize Trae is playing with the bench unit regularly this year.  That means prior to Bogi and AJ coming online he played with the Holidays, Jalen, and Okongwu.  Then he played with AJ, Forrest, Jalen, and Okongwu.  Hardly anyone on the bench would take shots.  
We've long determined that when Trae tries to facilitate and not look for his shot, we play worse.  

It's difficult for me to get into these conversations about Trae because people fail to process this.  It's a star driven league...Trae HAS TO shoot.  This is like expecting Giannis or KD to stop shooting.  Him taking bad shots and his numbers being down is not the same as him being a bad shooter with bad numbers bringing the team down.  Trae has his problems, but his ability to put the ball in the basket is not one of them. 

The biggest issue, by far, is the way this TEAM plays.

[kg01]

1 hour ago, Wretch said:

It's difficult for me to get into these conversations about Trae because people fail to process this.  It's a star driven league...Trae HAS TO shoot.  This is like expecting Giannis or KD to stop shooting.  Him taking bad shots and his numbers being down is not the same as him being a bad shooter with bad numbers bringing the team down.  Trae has his problems, but his ability to put the ball in the basket is not one of them. 

The biggest issue, by far, is the way this TEAM plays.

I wish the movie Hoosiers had never been made.  It has folks thinking the whole 'little engine that could' is a viable plan.

In reality, that formula worked like once in the last 6 decades in terms of advancing far in the playoffs.

And, to hedge the bet, the dissenters will say stte, "Bwah kg, they've gotta play team basketball and blah, blah, blah."

Well, duh.  But all contenders do that already ....... and they differentiate themselves by how well their stars perform, not by how Hoosier-ish their team plays.

Folks dont seem to know what theyre looking at in that regard.  It's like the thing I heard Jeff van Gundy say about marathons when folks claim the season is a marathon not a sprint, suggesting you got time to ease into it.  He says, "Have you seen marathon runners?  They're basically sprinting the whole race."

Folks look at GSW as their example of team play surpassing all.  Well, they have a team of HOFers.  They're the definition of star power surpassing all.

[benhillboy]

Trae used to track and anticipate rebounds coming off pretty well for his size.  I remember him getting 6-7 consistently during his first few years.  He hasn’t grabbed double digit rebounds in over 2 seasons.  Seems these days he’s consistently around 2 or 3.  

Ironically the Hawks lost the game where he posted his highest single game total of 13. 
 

Even still he‘s grabbed TWICE as many offensive rebounds as Kevin Durant this season. Cupcake is so appropriate for that man lol.

[JayBirdHawk]

13 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

He hasn’t grabbed double digit rebounds in over 2 seasons.

Seems like it may have coincided with the arrival of Capela - who grabs EVERYTHING.  Nothing to see here.

[JayBirdHawk]

On 11/14/2022 at 9:56 PM, JayBirdHawk said:

Does Trae have a wrap on his wrist?

 

On 11/16/2022 at 8:13 PM, JayBirdHawk said:

Trae has that right wrist wrapped again, had it on from about the 2nd quarter last game.

 

On 11/17/2022 at 10:45 AM, JayBirdHawk said:

Trae has been wearing a wrist wrap for the past 2 games, he was also wearing it in training camp...makes me wonder.

 

On 11/17/2022 at 12:45 AM, JayBirdHawk said:

I need a reporter to ask Trae about that taped wrist he's had the last 2 games. He started training camp with it.

This is from Day 3 (I think) of training camp.

 

Could this be affecting his shooting? Now that would be concerning.

I am circling back to my concerns from just over a month ago regarding Trae's wrist affecting his shooting. Has he had to adjust his shooting motion/stroke because of it? Something maybe amiss. (Granted Trae has always been a slow starter shooting the ball)

Now on top of that he has a back injury (from taking that charge) and numbness in his pinky.

 

 

[AHF]

36 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Seems like it may have coincided with the arrival of Capela - who grabs EVERYTHING.  Nothing to see here.

He is meaningfully down from last season, though.  Not sure if that is because defensive rebounds he might have grabbed in the past have gone to DM or not but I wouldn't say it is all Capela given that Trae wasn't that far off from normal last season.