Referendum on Hunter....

[AHF]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Thank you! If Hunter was ass, it would be justified

So you are saying Trae and DM are ass?  I'm not following this.  They are two players who are at least as good as Hunter overall so if they can be criticized then so he can, right?  Plenty of people have criticized both of them over time so my only point is to expect the same for Hunter.  

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but he's generally always legit and solid. Always. It's only now, we see him playing nearly at an all star level. But it wasn't like he was bad before. He was previously playing at the level of his contract. 21 million. Now he's playing like a Murray new contract level baller. He's overperforming expectations. He's a big wing, they will always cost a premium as they are the hardest commodity to find and keep.

This seems to go back to the disconnect between RAPTOR and other metrics and your personal evaluation of him.  Many rankings seem to share this view of him as well with the Athletic being in the minority (I haven't seen their rankings since I don't pay to subscribe with them).  Here is an example or two:

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-rankings-top-24-small-forwards-2023-24-season-lebron-tatum-durant/  (unranked)

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/nba-small-forward-rankings-2023-24-starters/874b8e192150e1b1cee58a73  (unranked)

https://fadeawayworld.net/ranking-the-25-best-small-forwards-for-the-2023-24-nba-season (#20)

https://sircharlesincharge.com/2023/09/24/nba-power-rankings-tiering-small-forwards/ (#16)

Many fans on this site seem aligned with the metrics while you have preached that he is much better than the metrics.  The nice thing is they are both aligned right now.  He is even adding a more disruptive element to his defense this season which is I think really great. Probably a more sustainable improvement than the level of shooting so far.

With the way Hunter has played this season, he will be moving up everyone's list.  (Except maybe the Athletic if you say they already had him as a top tier.)

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

I don't think a comparison to Marvin Williams is akin to a comparison to Damian Jones, do you?

I think most people see Marvin as a good reserve or subpar starter while Damian Jones is someone who is barely rosterable.

Let me paraphrase North's post and see if I'm reading your response to it correctly:

1) 5 games is not a big enough sample size.  - You seem to have no issue with this idea.

2) Hunter has been a meh player over his first 4 years akin to Marvin Williams.  - You disagree with this as you view his defensive flexibility as bringing a lot of value to the team and you don't think that is being acknowledged.  So you would maybe compare Hunter's first four seasons to someone better than Marvin Williams such as OG Anunoby.

3) Dre's efficiency is through the roof and if he plays like this he'll make the Hawks a much better team.  -  Seems like you don't disagree with this.

Marvin is a bad comparison. 

Why? He's wasn't in an era that knew what the hell he was which is a switchable small ball 4. That position didn't exist. Utah discovered that's Marvin best position and that's that. 

Either way, can't compare because Marvin didn't afford something that made him more valuable than a JAG. Hunter absolutely does. That's a significant difference. Marvin does have a lot of modern value but in his time. He was a rock in a hard spot. Roles weren't favorable to tweeners and Marvin was a tweener.

We already had Smoove who at least had clear defensive value so Marvin just wasn't that value. He wasn't a bad player. He was talented and had elite size and length for his prototype. Just his prototype didn't matter at that time. I'll never understand that comparison and it usually comes from our posters who lack the higher end understanding of the game. No one smart is making that comp. 

Also, no member of this team over the years have had bench players said they want to see over him that are clearly not ready than Dre. Griffin, TLC, Cam, Bogi, and JJ. I done heard all of these names should be above Dre at one time or another and all of it was dead ass wrong. 

Marvin isn't a decent player, shouldn't be drafted over CP3 and Deron but other than that, he was fine. He just didn't live up to expectations and his prototype was way ahead of his time. Dre is far better. What he does is extremely hard to find and that's why he was highly coveted whereas Marvin wasn't. I don't see the comparison. Dre is a legit good player. He fits what ALL teams are looking for. 

He's always made the Hawks a better team. He's making then much better now. He's playing at an all star level. You could make a case for him or Murray as our two best players right now. Both are playing like very good two way players and their impact is significant. 

 

[Diesel]

Oh and for @TheNorthCydeRises.   I don't disagree with what you have said... if we were talking about an overall critique of Dre' as a Player.   6 games is not enough time to change what we have noted for 4 years...  I agree with that.

No.  My referendum was more about Dre as a Hawk.  If after 6 games, he showed absolutely no response to Quin's system and he still gave us lack luster play, my counter would have been, let's trade his arse away as soon as possible. 

Why??.. Because under those circumstance, Bey would have been better....and we could start really exploring the development of AJ. 

That would have been my prescription for 6 games of Old Dre.  I believe that 6 games would have been enough for us to know if it's time to move in a different direction. 

 

[AHF]

You didn't say it, but I'm assuming you agree that Damion Jones and Marvin Williams are not comparable and so a comparison to one is not akin to a comparison to the other.  But I think you've hit the nail on the head with this:

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Either way, can't compare because Marvin didn't afford something that made him more valuable than a JAG. Hunter absolutely does. That's a significant difference. Marvin does have a lot of modern value but in his time. He was a rock in a hard spot. Roles weren't favorable to tweeners and Marvin was a tweener.

All the numbers prior to this season said that Hunter was JAG.  You have repeatedly sited to RAPTOR over the years when talking about the value that a player brings to the floor.  RAPTOR says he was not just an average player but was below average on our teams in his prior full seasons.  If RAPTOR was available today, it would not say he was one of the worse players on the Hawks.  It would say he was one of the best.  It might even have him as the very best player  right now.  That is a HUGE change.

18 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He's always made the Hawks a better team. He's making then much better now.

 

We've never been able to see that in the numbers because despite having weak backups at SF the team has mostly been better when he was off the court rather than on it.  That hasn't been the case this year.  He is sitting at a nice positive +/- right now:

Jalen Johnson +10.0

Dejounte Murray +9.0

Saddiq Bey +8.9

Onyeke Okongwu +7.0

Bogdan Bogdanovic +5.8

DeAndre Hunter +2.0

Trae Young +1.0

Clint Capela 0.0

This is a huge improvement over prior full* seasons.  (-0.3 2022-23; +0.5 2021-22; -4.1 2019-20).

I'd also bet a lot on him improving his current +/- if he can keep this play up.

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He's playing at an all star level. You could make a case for him or Murray as our two best players right now. Both are playing like very good two way players and their impact is significant. 

If he keeps this up, he will definitely be garnering a whole new level of respect not just on this site but around the league.  Look at where he ranked on top 100 lists this year.  If he plays like this all season, he is going to be on all of those lists next year.

 

* (His 20 game stretch in 2020-21 had a +3.7 +/- before he was lost for the year.)

[warcore]

I'm just glad Dre is playing with (more) passion and a purpose. This is what I always wanted him to be and knew he could. 

Not gonna raise my BP like some of you over something so pleasing. 

[Peoriabird]

31 minutes ago, Diesel said:

  If this keeps up, you will hear no complaints from me because he is helping my favorite team. 

 

 

Give me 1 reason he would stop.  Every time y'all think that Trae is better with something, there is never this talk of if he keeps it up.  The true of the matter is that Trae is the one that never keep doing good things not Dre!  LOL!

[thecampster]

3 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Its not enough for hunter to have a good or a great game...He has to have perfect games all season long and with some that isn't even enough.

Not even close to what I said???  

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, warcore said:

I'm just glad Dre is playing with (more) passion and a purpose. This is what I always wanted him to be and knew he could. 

Not gonna raise my BP like some of you over something so pleasing. 

Many of the Haters just can't come out and say what you just said.  Its just strange

[thecampster]

If anything my comment is a critique of the guard centric play that creeps back in I stead.of the high motion offense we are supposed to running.

[Atlantaholic]

Obivously he isn't gonna be at 70% TS all season, but I do believe he may have turned the corner and will actually be +efficient this year, which is what we need him to be. Hunter is off to an amazing start and if he keeps playing anywhere near this level it would be enormous for the Hawks. 

[NBASupes]

15 minutes ago, AHF said:

You didn't say it, but I'm assuming you agree that Damion Jones and Marvin Williams are not comparable and so a comparison to one is not akin to a comparison to the other.  But I think you've hit the nail on the head with this:

All the numbers prior to this season said that Hunter was JAG.  You have repeatedly sited to RAPTOR over the years when talking about the value that a player brings to the floor.  RAPTOR says he was not just an average player but was below average on our teams in his prior full seasons.  If RAPTOR was available today, it would not say he was one of the worse players on the Hawks.  It would say he was one of the best.  It might even have him as the very best player  right now.  That is a HUGE change.

We've never been able to see that in the numbers because despite having weak backups at SF the team has mostly been better when he was off the court rather than on it.  That hasn't been the case this year.  He is sitting at a nice positive +/- right now:

Jalen Johnson +10.0

Dejounte Murray +9.0

Saddiq Bey +8.9

Onyeke Okongwu +7.0

Bogdan Bogdanovic +5.8

DeAndre Hunter +2.0

Trae Young +1.0

Clint Capela 0.0

This is a huge improvement over prior full* seasons.  (-0.3 2022-23; +0.5 2021-22; -4.1 2019-20).

I'd also bet a lot on him improving his current +/- if he can keep this play up.

If he keeps this up, he will definitely be garnering a whole new level of respect not just on this site but around the league.  Look at where he ranked on top 100 lists this year.  If he plays like this all season, he is going to be on all of those lists next year.

 

* (His 20 game stretch in 2020-21 had a +3.7 +/- before he was lost for the year.)

Raw numbers weren't going to be favorable to Dre previous role. He wasn't asked to do anything stocks based on either end. 

The RAPTOR was high on Dre non stat impact. It's his stat based impact that was generally low which made sense via his role.

+/- has too much noise. Offensive rating, he's at 127, was at 140 and at 114 on defense. That's excellent so far and top on the team. 

Agree. 

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Give me 1 reason he would stop.  Every time y'all think that Trae is better with something, there is never this talk of if he keeps it up.  The true of the matter is that Trae is the one that never keep doing good things not Dre!  LOL!

If someone was claiming that Hunter would be a failure if he didn't keep this up I would tell them that is a wildly unrealistic expectation given how much better his numbers are this season than ever before and that he can still be a huge success this season without keeping it up.

Here is 1 reason to expect that he won't have a .709% TS% the full season.  This is the list of wings with a TS% over .700 by season:

2022-23:  No one.  (Durant at .677% was the leader)

2021-22:  No one.  (Durant at .634% was the leader)

2020-21:  No one.  (Ingles at .672% was the leader)

2019-20:  No one.  (Duncan Robinson at .686% was the leader)

2018-19:  No one.  (Joe Harris at .645% was the leader)

Hunter's career high TS% for a full season is .563%.  He doesn't need to keep it up at this level to have a career best season and no one should expect it.

[RedDawg#8]

34 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Also, no member of this team over the years have had bench players said they want to see over him that are clearly not ready than Dre. Griffin, TLC, Cam, Bogi, and JJ. I done heard all of these names should be above Dre at one time or another and all of it was dead ass wrong.  

Im just going to say against this one part, the best this Hawks core has ever played, over a much larger sample size than 5 games, were the 25 games Dre missed and Bogi was in the starting lineup.

We can argue individual talent vs individual talent between the two, because that’s not my point. This core, this TEAM played its best ever version of itself with Kev and Bogi starting on the wing and no Dre available.

That cannot be disputed.

Bogi at his peak performance was explosive offensively and broke games open with his shooting, and hit big time baskets in the clutch to help us win games. His defense elevated enough not to be a complete liability at that time. He was a potential 30pt scoring threat and our legit #2 option.

Dre’s peak, that same season, was a consistent player night in and out on both ends that could get you 20. He was our number 2, but we were still losing and underperforming.

Just my humble observation from that season.

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Im just going to say against this one part, the best this Hawks core has ever played, over a much larger sample size than 5 games, were the 25 games Dre missed and Bogi was in the starting lineup.

We can argue individual talent vs individual talent between the two, because that’s not my point. This core, this TEAM played its best ever version of itself with Kev and Bogi starting on the wing and no Dre available.

That cannot be disputed.

Bogi at his peak performance was explosive offensively and broke games open with his shooting, and hit big time baskets in the clutch to help us win games. His defense elevated enough not to be a complete liability at that time. He was a potential 30pt scoring threat and our legit #2 option.

Dre’s peak, that same season, was a consistent player night in and out on both ends that could get you 20. He was our number 2, but we were still losing and underperforming.

Just my humble observation from that season.

Tony Snell and Solo Hill was also in that lineup. It was during the post COVID season. No one had time to adjust to our changes since LP was fired. So many things were going on in that season that wouldn't happen any other season. That season should be more questioned than the bubble because teams were at their worst health wise including us.

Edited November 2, 2023 by NBASupes

[JeffS17]

18 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Tony Snell and Solo Hill was also in that lineup. It was during the post COVID season. No one had time to adjust to our changes since LP was fired. So many things were going on in that season that wouldn't happen any other season. That season should be more questioned than the bubble because teams were at their worst health wise including us.

Also we literally peaked playing heliocentric Trae ball -- similar to the Rockets who came really close to beating the Warriors but couldn't get over the hump.  We had nowhere to go but down after that season without modernizing the offense (Nate took us the opposite direction), which is what is so exciting about Quin being at the helm right now.

[Gray Mule]

DIESEL:

You said something like, "Everyone wanted to trade Capela."  Oops!  Everyone includes me.  I plead innocense!

I have stated, over and over, how bad the Hawks wanted a "real" center before Capela arrived.  When he arrrived, the noise died down.  The man is a rebounding machine.  This keeps us in most all of our games.

Improvement!  Capela, a 60% free shooter before this season, is now 80%+ and, in our last three games, has hit 100% of his free throws.  Everyone knows how I continually harp on missed free throws.  I am delighted with this.

 

 

[terrell]

5 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

1 more game and it will be over!  @Diesel will have to stop his hatred of Hunter and stop mischaracterizing him as Marvin William 2.0 forever!  Also @AHF will have to admit that it is now 3 coaches that see more in Hunter than his own fans which is sad.  @TheNorthCydeRises will have to stop trying to trade him. @theheroatl will stop trying to bench him and @terrell will have to stop dogging him during the game threads although the latter is wishful thinking...LOL   De'andre Hunter will finally be fully embraced by this fan base and seen as a valuable starter on this team for years to come!

I only dog him when he plays like shit like I do every other player.. smh

Ive never been in favor of moving him without adequate replacemnent..

Lets just hope he can keep playing well, because if he doesnt this comment might come back to bite you.. lol

You ve got some balls betting on him playing like this consistently or even staying healthy for long period of time after not doing so in 4 years..  

Good luck to both of you.... Because Dre is the X factor for us..

I was more a JC hater btw.. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by terrell

[theheroatl]

Hey while we are at it....

 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by theheroatl

[macdaddy]

2 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

Hey while we are at it....

 

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

Hey while we are at it....

 

 

 

I had to go look at the details on this to see what's driving it.  I'd say the biggest take away is small sample size.  But one thing that seems very clear is the defense is way better with JJ on the floor than Bey.  Opponents offensive rating takes a 30 point dip when Jalen is on the floor.  It goes up 10 points when Bey is on the floor vs off.  But obviously grain of salt on 5 game numbers. 

[Peoriabird]

11 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

Hey while we are at it....

 

 

So what does this all mean?  The player with the highest plus minus is the best player on the team?