Official Game Thread: Pacers at Hawks -- IST Game #3

[AHF]

MODERATOR NOTE:

I'm going to go through and slash the inter-poster commentary from a substantial chunk of the thread.  Please stop adding poster commentary to your posts.

Examples:

Dominique Wilkins is a great scorer but a bad defender.  [check]

Dominique Wilkins is a terrible scorer but a great defender.  [check]

Lethal's idiotic idea that Wilkins is a terrible scorer is not supported by the data.  [X - poster attack mixed with basketball discussion]

AHF and cap are ignorant and just watch the box scores which is why they think Wilkins is a weak defender.  [X - poster attack mixed with basketball discussion]

Squawkers are ignorant and only I have an informed view on Nique's true value.  [X - poster attack without basketball discussion]

[Quotes someone's post] - Ignorant take.  [X - poster attack without basketball discussion]

Please PM me if this does not make sense to anyone.  When you start talking about other posters in your discussion of the game, a player, a coach, etc. hit a mental pause in your mind and ask yourself why you are mentioning the poster.  If it is to share an opinion about that poster, it probably needs to be deleted from your post.  Just make your basketball point without talking about the other poster.

[deester11]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Good post

Is he really overrated tho?

Maybe your expectations for him are way too high. I heard @TheNorthCydeRises say he wants a 3rd star out of him. I haven't seen any of that from him consistently ever. But I do see a very consistent defensive player who's versatile with size and length. I know those players don't grow on trees like centers in the 2000s. Maybe, just maybe, the expectations are too high from some individuals here. 

I am fine with Hunter and no, I am not fine about last night. He was awful offensively and that's not gonna cut it. No matter what. 

I would say my expectations were high, but if I'm being honest, I've never liked his play. That's a totally honest biased view.  I just feel like measurables are great if you have that DOG. That DRIVE.  I can't judge another man's mentality but I'm just not one to think that it's always the system...the coach...the injuries...or the pressure when it comes to Hunter.

He's been a Hawk.  I want him to be the best he can be obviously.  It could be that with the flawed construction of this team, he's in over his head.  But has that been the case his entire pro career? I don't believe so. I don't dislike him at all.  Just wish he'd do something. 

[AHF]

12 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I don't know a single realistic metric that says Dre is not impactful.

Which metrics should we be looking at?  

[Spud2nique]

32 minutes ago, shakes said:

 

I'll always remember this game as the game where Murray cost us the in season tournament with his idiotic decision at the end of the game.

Oyyyyye vaaaayyyyy the nauuuuuuvvve (nerve).

[AHF]

34 minutes ago, shakes said:

 

I'll always remember this game as the game where Murray cost us the in season tournament with his idiotic decision at the end of the game.

Murray definitely made a terrible play at the end of the game.  I don't know that I would say he cost us the game anymore than someone making a bonehead play earlier in the game cost us the game, though.  Overall it was a pretty good game for him with a horrible ending to it.  

That said, I also don't think we were ever gong to win the in-season tournament so I'm not going to say it cost us that anymore than I think it cost us a #1 seed in the East.  Neither is at all likely to happen.

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

MODERATOR NOTE:

I'm going to go through and slash the inter-poster commentary from a substantial chunk of the thread.  Please stop adding poster commentary to your posts.

Examples:

Dominique Wilkins is a great scorer but a bad defender.  [check]

Dominique Wilkins is a terrible scorer but a great defender.  [check]

Lethal's idiotic idea that Wilkins is a terrible scorer is not supported by the data.  [X - poster attack mixed with basketball discussion]

AHF and cap are ignorant and just watch the box scores which is why they think Wilkins is a weak defender.  [X - poster attack mixed with basketball discussion]

Squawkers are ignorant and only I have an informed view on Nique's true value.  [X - poster attack without basketball discussion]

[Quotes someone's post] - Ignorant take.  [X - poster attack without basketball discussion]

Please PM me if this does not make sense to anyone.  When you start talking about other posters in your discussion of the game, a player, a coach, etc. hit a mental pause in your mind and ask yourself why you are mentioning the poster.  If it is to share an opinion about that poster, it probably needs to be deleted from your post.  Just make your basketball point without talking about the other poster.

Sorry AHF but all I was doing is get [someone to concede a point].

No more trouble from me, maybe I can’t send Hunter to Siberia but I’ll [just ignore content I don't like].

 

[kg01]

15 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Sorry AHF but all I was doing is getting a certain poster to admit he was wrong which is mission impossible because he won’t admit it just makes excuses.

No more trouble from me, maybe I can’t send Hunter to Siberia but I’ll send one of his excuse makin fans to the IGNORE LIST.

 

#nolies #bs

Good on you, squd.  AH chopped my post so much, it reads like a bad karate movie dubbed into English. 

[JayBirdHawk]

3 hours ago, deester11 said:

It WAS on rigid Nate! Additionally, the problem is staying status quo with a roster that has proven to be flawed.  Over..and over...and over.....

Both Hunter and Capela were on the trade block this past offseason.

[Spud2nique]

Just now, kg01 said:

AH chopped my post so much, it reads like a bad karate movie dubbed into English. 

I’m dying  

 

  

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

Both Hunter and Capela were on the trade block this past offseason.

Thanks to the OUTSIDERS!!! That’s outsiders with an O, A BIG O!!!  

[kg01]

We deserved the L but them refs were special last night.

I'll say again, I don't mind Trae not getting the continuation.  But don't double-screw us by granting sketchy continuation on the other end.  If you're gonna f*ck us, don't get us comin' and goin'.. 

[benhillboy]

Today marks the first time Trae has had a 120 offensive rating on the season in his career.  Unfortunately like the rest of his career it’s trumped by his career worst defensive rating of 121.  Both values are inflated due to his FT shooting for the former and Clint’s drop off for the latter but still in line with his historically underwater impact.

Haliburton (139 to 122), SGA (124 to 105), and Brunson (121 to 114) are simply in a different class of mapping and controlling a game.  Always have been and will be seeing how they play alongside younger and/ or less talented players as floor raisers.  Fox, Morant, and Ball are his impact peers for the future: great individual stats but no real force-multiplying ability.  He’s clearly superior to Garland.

Edited November 22, 2023 by benhillboy

[JayBirdHawk]

10 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Hard to win with your 2 being 6'4 185 and not a high flyer and your 1 being 6'1 170 and definitely not a high flyer.

Our high flyer should have been one of Cam or Dre - yet here we are.

I have been saying since Trae was drafted we needed a wing to at least come close to what he is on offense while being able to play real defense. 

[Atlantaholic]

8 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

Today marks the first time Trae has had a 120 offensive rating on the season in his career.  Unfortunately like the rest of his career it’s trumped by his career worst defensive rating of 121.  Both values are inflated due to his FT shooting for the former and Clint’s drop off for the latter but still in line with his historically underwater impact.

Haliburton (139 to 122), SGA (124 to 105), and Brunson (121 to 114) are simply in a different class of mapping and controlling a game.  Always have been and will be seeing how they play alongside younger and/ or less talented players as floor raisers.  Fox, Morant, and Ball are his impact peers for the future: great individual stats but no real force-multiplying ability.  He’s clearly superior to Garland.

Trae's defensive rating is along the lines of everyone else on the team. Drtg is a stat he shares with the people that are in the lineup when he plays. 

[JayBirdHawk]

9 hours ago, FL_BRYANT said:

Question, has DeAndre reached his ceiling? His lack of consistency is a real problem. 

 

3 hours ago, deester11 said:

 He SHOULD be more is all I'm saying. 4 years in...when is more....more?

Time to lower your expectations.

 

I'm now wondering if he's on the full Quin buy in as @thecampster indicated he wasn't when Q first arrived.

[Atlantaholic]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

Time to lower your expectations.

 

I'm now wondering if he's on the full Quin buy in as @thecampster indicated he wasn't when Q first arrived.

HIs ceiling is his floor. He's put up the same season every season he's been in the league. 

[JayBirdHawk]

49 minutes ago, AHF said:

Which metrics should we be looking at?  

get comfy, it will be awhile.

[kg01]

17 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

Today marks the first time Trae has had a 120 offensive rating on the season in his career.  Unfortunately like the rest of his career it’s trumped by his career worst defensive rating of 121.  Both values are inflated due to his FT shooting for the former and Clint’s drop off for the latter but still in line with his historically underwater impact.

Haliburton (139 to 122), SGA (124 to 105), and Brunson (121 to 114) are simply in a different class of mapping and controlling a game.  Always have been and will be.  Fox, Morant, and Ball are his impact peers for the future.  He’s clearly superior to Garland.

But am I your posting impact beer, hillbilly? 

That's the real question.

[Jody23]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Murray definitely made a terrible play at the end of the game.  I don't know that I would say he cost us the game anymore than someone making a bonehead play earlier in the game cost us the game, though.  Overall it was a pretty good game for him with a horrible ending to it.  

That said, I also don't think we were ever gong to win the in-season tournament so I'm not going to say it cost us that anymore than I think it cost us a #1 seed in the East.  Neither is at all likely to happen.

Agreed.  I think what was so infuriating about that play was it was directly after a timeout.  Everybody knew the score and how much time was left.  Add to that, Murray didn't even get the stop.  It was Trae.  Knowing they needed a three, he decides to try to be a hero rather than giving his team a chance to win by making the right play.  And the smirk on his face as he walked off the floor.  He seems to be unserious when it matters most like needlessly getting himself suspended in the playoffs last season.

[Atlantaholic]

21 minutes ago, kg01 said:

But am I your posting impact beer, hillbilly? 

That's the real question.

It's just kinda crazy to make these type of comments on these players based on ORTG and DRTG. Those stats basically tell you essentially who is most efficient offensively (ORTG: Points produced per 100 shots) and pretty much next to nothing (DRTG: Points allowed by the team while you are on the floor per 100 posessions). You can compare DRTG in the same team and get an idea of who is the best defender on the team, but you can't compare different individual DRTG of players on different teams because DRTG will be higher or lower depending on everyone else that shares the lineup with that player. Haliburton's 122 drtg is pretty much similar to everyone else on the team with significant minutes, and dido for the other guys on their teams. Brunson and Shai have much better defensive ratings than Trae Young and Hali because they play in top 7 and top 4 defensive teams in the league. If you put Brunson on the Hawks his DRTG wouldn't stay the same it would go up and he'd end up having the same DRTG as Trae give or take a couple of points. It just doesn't tell you anything about individual defense. 

 

And to clarify, not saying Trae IS a better defender than any or all of those guys, but just that DRTG is not what you can look at to determine that, the same way you can't look at ORTG to determine who is the best offensive player on a team or league. (It's usually always centers who shoot 60% from the floor that lead their teams) ORTG is flawed because it assumes that players will maintain their same exact rate of production at vastly increased volumes, which is pretty much never the case. 

[Spud2nique]

48 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

Today marks the first time Trae has had a 120 offensive rating on the season in his career.

 … ( back to the nerdery )

 

Thanks hillbilly - @kg01