Official Game Thread: Hawks at Rockets

[Final_quest]

12 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Our Center rotation

• 14th in points - ( 21.2 )
• 2nd in Offenisve rebounds - ( 7.4 )
• 14th in Defensive rebounds - ( 9.9 )
• 2nd in Total Rebounds - ( 17.1 )
• 24th in Assists - ( 2.6 )
• 9th in Blocks - ( 2.5 )
• T1st in least Turnovers - ( 1.6 )
• 10th in FG% - ( 57.6% )
• 26th in 3FG% - ( 27.8% )
• 10th in FT% - ( 75.9% )

 

• Overall Offensive Efficiency:  6th - ( 35.6 )
• Overall Defensive Efficiency:  28th - ( 36.2 )
• Net Efficiency Differential:  16th - ( -0.6 )  

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/24/10/diffeff/1-1

 

Translation:  Our center group ( as a whole ), is average. 

This tandem is good not great, and like a lot of our roster it's tough to upgrade from here. 

Let's say Trae is a top 3 PG.  Every other starter on the roster is outside of the top 10 for their position.  That's why we actually win games with our bench when Bogi, Bey, and Okongwu come in and outperform the other team's bench.

I was completely on board with the pursuit of Siakam who was ranked the #3 PF.  If our FO really has decided against going after a 2nd big salary we are stuck with fighting to stay out of the play in as our best case scenario.  Signing another bench player for $10M is lipstick on a pig.  I see no victory in paying the tax with an assortment of players outside the top 60.  Losing formula.   

 
   

[Diesel]

9 hours ago, Sothron said:

Capela played well. OO was awesome in the fourth. He played the entire fourth. We really have a great center combination. I'm still shocked OO hasn't pushed to start but if he's happy that's all that matters.

Why would he.  He got his contract.   He finishes games.  We win.   I was concerned about OO because it seemed like he was regressing.  Many of his fans here were quiet about it.   it seems that the same energy doesn't apply for OO playing below par than if CC did.  It's the whole "somebody got to go" attitude of Hawks fans.  Right now, OO and CC are a very good 1-2 punch at the 5.   And as OO improves his game..both offensively and defensively, this punch is going to be a whole lot better.  I would even like to see Bruno used more.   He actually didn't play bad when given the chance. 

When we get JJ back and everything is working in harmony.. there will be some humble pie for a lot of impatient Hawks fans. 

 

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Translation:  Our center group ( as a whole ), is average. 

For now.  The coverage of JJ at the 4.. causes a strain on the position. 

 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, Final_quest said:

This tandem is good not great, and like a lot of our roster it's tough to upgrade from here. 

Let's say Trae is a top 3 PG.  Every other starter on the roster is outside of the top 10 for their position.  That's why we actually win games with our bench when Bogi, Bey, and Okongwu come in and outperform the other team's bench.

I was completely on board with the pursuit of Siakam who was ranked the #3 PF.  If our FO really has decided against going after a 2nd big salary we are stuck with fighting to stay out of the play in as our best case scenario.  Signing another bench player for $10M is lipstick on a pig.  I see no victory in paying the tax with an assortment of players outside the top 60.  Losing formula.   

 
   

The price we would have had to pay for Siakam and his lack of defense and shooting would have made that trade disastrous. 

It's not 2019 Siakam.  It's 2023 Siakam who doesn't make an impact on defense and really his high usage doesn't help the offense.   He is the problem with the Raptors and you want to bring him here.  Next time you think you want to trade for Siakam...

Go get his 2023 stats...  Erase his name.  Put it in a pile with 5 other starting PFs...  and erase their names...  Put all the numbers side by side and rank them.  I Betcha he ends up last or next to last...  and he wants 43+ Million dollars. 

Stop yearning for a name.  Right now, JJ is better. 

 

[Final_quest]

15 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The price we would have had to pay for Siakam and his lack of defense and shooting would have made that trade disastrous. 

It's not 2019 Siakam.  It's 2023 Siakam who doesn't make an impact on defense and really his high usage doesn't help the offense.   He is the problem with the Raptors and you want to bring him here.  Next time you think you want to trade for Siakam...

Go get his 2023 stats...  Erase his name.  Put it in a pile with 5 other starting PFs...  and erase their names...  Put all the numbers side by side and rank them.  I Betcha he ends up last or next to last...  and he wants 43+ Million dollars. 

Stop yearning for a name.  Right now, JJ is better. 

 

Not convinced.  The Siakam I saw play against us told a different story.  Besides, in my view he's replacing Hunter not JJ. 

JJ and Bey move to the 3 and maybe it's a rotation with Siakam that covers the 3 and 4.  

But I'm not hung up on just Siakam.  My main point is we can't win with Trae being our only starter who is top 10 at his position.  Signing more guys for $10M contracts outside of the top 60 in the league only masks a bigger issue of not being top heavy enough.   

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, Final_quest said:

Not convinced.  The Siakam I saw play against us told a different story.  Besides, in my view he's replacing Hunter not JJ. 

JJ and Bey move to the 3 and maybe it's a rotation with Siakam that covers the 3 and 4.  

But I'm not hung up on just Siakam.  My main point is we can't win with Trae being our only starter who is top 10 at his position.  Signing more guys for $10M contracts outside of the top 60 in the league only masks a bigger issue of not being top heavy enough.   

@Final_quest  I just challenged you to the 5 player challenge. 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, Final_quest said:

This tandem is good not great, and like a lot of our roster it's tough to upgrade from here. 

Let's say Trae is a top 3 PG.  Every other starter on the roster is outside of the top 10 for their position.  That's why we actually win games with our bench when Bogi, Bey, and Okongwu come in and outperform the other team's bench.

I was completely on board with the pursuit of Siakam who was ranked the #3 PF.  If our FO really has decided against going after a 2nd big salary we are stuck with fighting to stay out of the play in as our best case scenario.  Signing another bench player for $10M is lipstick on a pig.  I see no victory in paying the tax with an assortment of players outside the top 60.  Losing formula.   

 
   

 

http://www.hoopsstats.com/

I have always used this site to evaluate players on our team, and compare them to the rest of the league.  This site follows the old NBA Efficiency formula, which rewards players who put up counting stats.  As with all metrics, it has flaws.  But it pretty accurately shows how people stack up at their respective positions from a purely production standpoint.

Let's start with our backcourt.  Here are our NBA player efficiency rankings at those positions.  

( Note:  Since DJ starts at the 2, he's considered a SG.  But for comparison, I'll post DJ's rank at PG and at SG )

 

PG:  Trae ( 4th ) - DJ ( 15th ) - Mills ( 82nd ) - Forrest ( 83rd )

SG:  DJ ( 14th ) - Bogi ( 18th ) - G. Matthews ( 88th ) - Bufkin ( 119th )

 

We all know that Trae - DJ - and Bogi are our strength.  They are all top 20 at their position.   But as you've pointed out, we don't have any high level players at their positions, like Trae is at PG.  Most of your top teams have at least 2 guys who are top 10 at their position.

 

Now let's do the frontcourt

SF:  12 ( 24th ) - W. Matthews ( 81st )

PF:  JJ ( 13th ) - Bey ( 23th ) - AJ ( 91st )

C : Capela ( 14th ) - Okongwu ( 27th ) - Bruno ( 77th )

 

JJ at 13th is honestly crazy. His production and efficiency was very good.  As for 12 being 24th, that doesn't surprise me at all.

The overall theme is that when you look at our team this way, we have a lot of mid level talent that should keep us competitive. But maybe a top level talent away from really being a significant threat.

[Final_quest]

3 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

http://www.hoopsstats.com/

I have always used this site to evaluate players on our team, and compare them to the rest of the league.  This site follows the old NBA Efficiency formula, which rewards players who put up counting stats.  As with all metrics, it has flaws.  But it pretty accurately shows how people stack up at their respective positions from a purely production standpoint.

Let's start with our backcourt.  Here are our NBA player efficiency rankings at those positions.  

( Note:  Since DJ starts at the 2, he's considered a SG.  But for comparison, I'll post DJ's rank at PG and at SG )

 

PG:  Trae ( 4th ) - DJ ( 15th ) - Mills ( 82nd ) - Forrest ( 83rd )

SG:  DJ ( 14th ) - Bogi ( 18th ) - G. Matthews ( 88th ) - Bufkin ( 119th )

 

We all know that Trae - DJ - and Bogi are our strength.  They are all top 20 at their position.   But as you've pointed out, we don't have any high level players at their positions, like Trae is at PG.  Most of your top teams have at least 2 guys who are top 10 at their position.

 

Now let's do the frontcourt

SF:  12 ( 24th ) - W. Matthews ( 81st )

PF:  JJ ( 13th ) - Bey ( 23th ) - AJ ( 91st )

C : Capela ( 14th ) - Okongwu ( 27th ) - Bruno ( 77th )

 

JJ at 13th is honestly crazy. His production and efficiency was very good.  As for 12 being 24th, that doesn't surprise me at all.

The overall theme is that when you look at our team this way, we have a lot of mid level talent that should keep us competitive. But maybe a top level talent away from really being a significant threat.

This is an excellent visual.  It shows what I see when I look at our roster.  Main need is one more star.  Competitive as is.  

AJ falling off the grid and having no help from the draft this year is another problem.  I wonder how many teams don't play a rookie or sophomore that had picks in the past two drafts?  

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

http://www.hoopsstats.com/

I have always used this site to evaluate players on our team, and compare them to the rest of the league.  This site follows the old NBA Efficiency formula, which rewards players who put up counting stats.  As with all metrics, it has flaws.  But it pretty accurately shows how people stack up at their respective positions from a purely production standpoint.

Let's start with our backcourt.  Here are our NBA player efficiency rankings at those positions.  

( Note:  Since DJ starts at the 2, he's considered a SG.  But for comparison, I'll post DJ's rank at PG and at SG )

 

PG:  Trae ( 4th ) - DJ ( 15th ) - Mills ( 82nd ) - Forrest ( 83rd )

SG:  DJ ( 14th ) - Bogi ( 18th ) - G. Matthews ( 88th ) - Bufkin ( 119th )

 

We all know that Trae - DJ - and Bogi are our strength.  They are all top 20 at their position.   But as you've pointed out, we don't have any high level players at their positions, like Trae is at PG.  Most of your top teams have at least 2 guys who are top 10 at their position.

 

Now let's do the frontcourt

SF:  12 ( 24th ) - W. Matthews ( 81st )

PF:  JJ ( 13th ) - Bey ( 23th ) - AJ ( 91st )

C : Capela ( 14th ) - Okongwu ( 27th ) - Bruno ( 77th )

 

JJ at 13th is honestly crazy. His production and efficiency was very good.  As for 12 being 24th, that doesn't surprise me at all.

The overall theme is that when you look at our team this way, we have a lot of mid level talent that should keep us competitive. But maybe a top level talent away from really being a significant threat.

Actually, you make it go efficiency.. where 

Efficiency Recap Difference = Efficiency Recap - Opponent's Efficiency Recap

.: Eff:= ((Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks) - ((Field goals attempts - Field goals made) + (Free throws attempts - Free throws made) + Turnovers))

 

But let's get to the meat.  You say most top NBA teams have 2 players who are top 10. There are a lot of lower teams that have two players in the top ten also. 

1. Toronto.
2. Lakers
3. Bulls
4. Hornets

Etc. 

It's not a guarantee.  It's not even an indicator.   Charlotte is 7-19 with 2 players that are in the top ten of their position...  What does it mean?  Nothing. 

 

 

 

 

[Chrimturn]

Everybody…Man you guys are deeeeep with the metrics and stats.    Really glad I found this place.  Helping me in my quest to rediscover the passion I used to have for the NBA.  Thanks!

[Final_quest]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Actually, you make it go efficiency.. where 

Efficiency Recap Difference = Efficiency Recap - Opponent's Efficiency Recap

.: Eff:= ((Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks) - ((Field goals attempts - Field goals made) + (Free throws attempts - Free throws made) + Turnovers))

 

But let's get to the meat.  You say most top NBA teams have 2 players who are top 10. There are a lot of lower teams that have two players in the top ten also. 

1. Toronto.
2. Lakers
3. Bulls
4. Hornets

Etc. 

It's not a guarantee.  It's not even an indicator.   Charlotte is 7-19 with 2 players that are in the top ten of their position...  What does it mean?  Nothing. 

 

 

 

 

I don't know if Charlotte has any player in the top 10 for their position.  But I never said having two top 10 players is a guarantee.  I said that is our team's main need. 

And yes, until recently you needed two future HOF players to win a title.  That had been a trend you could set your watch to.  Definitely seems to be changing with Denver, Milwaukee, and maybe even Toronto.  

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I don't know if Charlotte has any player in the top 10 for their position.  But I never said having two top 10 players is a guarantee.  I said that is our team's main need. 

And yes, until recently you needed two future HOF players to win a title.  That had been a trend you could set your watch to.  Definitely seems to be changing with Denver, Milwaukee, and maybe even Toronto.  

Ball and Bridges are #10 at their position.

[Diesel]

10 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I don't know if Charlotte has any player in the top 10 for their position.  But I never said having two top 10 players is a guarantee.  I said that is our team's main need. 

That's just it.. if it is not a guarantee...  Why are we changing our whole alignment and possibly putting ourselves into Debt for years.. for something that might work.   Those kind of things leads to the firesale when they don't work out.   That leads back to the drawing board and back to the draft parties.. and back to the bag over our heads.   And next thing you know you're paying Kent Bazemore a max contract just to stay around. 

Nah.

 

8 minutes ago, AHF said:

Ball and Bridges are #10 at their position.

& Rozier is #6 at his.

 

[Final_quest]

6 minutes ago, AHF said:

Ball and Bridges are #10 at their position.

Checked out 3 preseason lists and Ball was #11, 15, and 19 on them.  And Bridges?  Who just got out of jail or the insane assylum?  

[Final_quest]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

That's just it.. if it is not a guarantee...  Why are we changing our whole alignment and possibly putting ourselves into Debt for years.. for something that might work.   Those kind of things leads to the firesale when they don't work out.   That leads back to the drawing board and back to the draft parties.. and back to the bag over our heads.   And next thing you know you're paying Kent Bazemore a max contract just to stay around. 

Nah.

 

& Rozier is #6 at his.

 

Dude, the only way you can get away with not having two top 10 players at their position and contend is having a top 3 player in the league.  Jokic could do it averaging nearly 30, 10, 10.  Murray plays like an elite PG in the playoffs, too.

Besides getting two top 10 guys is so achievable it doesn't guarantee winning/contending.  Having only one takes you even further away from contention.

Rozier was ranked #25 on the first list I pulled up.  No way in hell Charlotte has two top ten guys, but that's why they are one of the league's worst teams.  

[Diesel]

10 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Dude, the only way you can get away with not having two top 10 players at their position and contend is having a top 3 player in the league.  Jokic could do it averaging nearly 30, 10, 10.  Murray plays like an elite PG in the playoffs, too.

Besides getting two top 10 guys is so achievable it doesn't guarantee winning/contending.  Having only one takes you even further away from contention.

Rozier was ranked #25 on the first list I pulled up.  No way in hell Charlotte has two top ten guys, but that's why they are one of the league's worst teams.  

We're looking at the stats that @TheNorthCydeRises linked that you praised a few moments ago...

 

So Charlotte actually has 3 players in the top 10 at their position. ...

 

You were saying?

[Diesel]

 

 

 

And their Center is 13th...

 

This is a 7 win team.  That means that this Theory is meaningfreakingless...

 

[Final_quest]

6 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

As with all metrics, it has flaws. 

You definitely found the flaws.  So what?  Doesn’t mean teams with less talent win.

There’s nothing productive in a conversation where someone isn’t genuinely engaging and only looks for statistical outliers.  

What is your main point?  Statistics have flaws or there’s no point in upgrading talent?  You seem to be in this for gotcha moments only.  

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, Final_quest said:

You definitely found the flaws.  So what?  Doesn’t mean teams with less talent win.

There’s nothing productive in a conversation where someone isn’t genuinely engaging and only looks for statistical outliers.  

What is your main point?  Statistics have flaws or there’s no point in upgrading talent?  You seem to be in this for gotcha moments only.  

Hyperboyle... no?

We're not saying do nothing to improve.  We're saying if you do something, do something smart.  Something that doesn't curse the team.  Going after Siakam because he's available.. isn't really smart when he doesn't do anything defensive (anymore).  Tobias Harris just ate his lunch in his face... 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

10 hours ago, Diesel said:

 

 

 

And their Center is 13th...

 

This is a 7 win team.  That means that this Theory is meaningfreakingless...

 

 

No.  It means that Charlotte has been ravaged with injuries, and those top 3 guys haven't played together more than 6 games all year as a trio.

• Ball hasn't played since Thanksgiving
• Rozier played the first 5 games of the season, went down, and came back on the same night LaMelo got hurt
• And Bridges missed the first 10 games of the season

If and when they get healthy, Ball will be the leader and probably still be in or near the top 10 ( he was 11th in the regular season last year ).  Rozier's role will reduce to instant offense scorer, with his assist volume going down.  Bridges role will also be reduced, but his efficiency when playing with Ball may go up.

Kind of crazy though that Charlotte was one of the teams that beat us on opening night.