No Extension for John Collins

[LucastheThird]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Mikal is killing right now it so that's not happening. Have you been watching Bridges play or naw which is what I expect?

I haven't,  I only see the stats but even I can see he's's balling right now. But would he ball the exact same way here? JC get buckets without plays called for him. Is Mikal getting set plays called for him? Is he getting serious touches in their offense? Or is he just filling in the cracks on busted plays like JC? 

 

Someone who can still get his while not getting plays called for him is an asset that you just can't flip for anyone. 

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, LucastheThird said:

I haven't,  I only see the stats but even I can see he's's balling right now. But would he ball the exact same way here? JC get buckets without plays called for him. Is Mikal getting set plays called for him? Is he getting serious touches in their offense? Or is he just filling in the cracks on busted plays like JC? 

 

Someone who can still get his while not getting plays called for him is an asset that you just can't flip for anyone. 

If you don't watch Mikal play, I am not sure why you would comment. He's been a monster this year for Phoenix. 

[LucastheThird]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

If you don't watch Mikal play, I am not sure why you would comment. He's been a monster this year for Phoenix. 

I commented to ask questions about his game. You have seen him play while I only see the stats. So I'm asking if he can do what JC is doing for the Hawks.

[JayBirdHawk]

15 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Mikal is killing right now it so that's not happening. Have you been watching Bridges play or naw which is what I expect?

I'm asking you if you are still making the trade based on what you've seen from Collins and how he fits with this 'new' team and his role in it........yes or no?

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm asking you if you are still making the trade based on what you've seen from Collins and how he fits with this 'new' team and his role in it........yes or no?

I'll take Mikal. That give us three guys who can guard 1-4 and can shoot at an elite clip. JC just started having great games in the last two v. Brooklyn who can't defend the PnR. Mikal been an Island all year.

 

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, LucastheThird said:

I commented to ask questions about his game. You have seen him play while I only see the stats. So I'm asking if he can do what JC is doing for the Hawks.

My goodness, a lot. Mikal is elite shooter. Mikal locks locks down 1-4. Mikal gives us another Hunter and Reddish. I rather those two over JC for most matchups. Against Brooklyn, JC was excellent but most teams defend the PnR a lot better than Brooklyn. 

[Wretch]

On 12/26/2020 at 9:40 PM, Diesel said:

That's BS.

Steph is not declining... and I believe it points out the problem with your ability to observe talent.   Steph needs certain players around him to take pressure off of him.. as do most star players... including Lavine.   Steph was more free when he had Klay and KD playing with him.   He had to adjust to having a scorer like KD but he did.  That's not declining. 

Lavine is the whole offense for Chicago.  The Whole offense.  If you put him with other guys who can play offense and he will shine and that team will win. 

 

I guess I'm in the minority that likes Lavine too.  He is one of those players that has been buried under a narrative and forgotten in a losing system.  To me he's the perfect fit.  Yeah, we lose something defensively...but there's no way to guard him and Trae.  The open looks Trae creates would be like layups to him and his ability to score draws just as much attention for Trae to play off of.  That is a scary combination...

The best part is that he might be sitting in the discount bin as far as availability goes.  I'm gonna be real with you guys...  If I wasn't so high on Cam/Hunter, or if we hadn't drafted both of those guys, I'd die on this hill alongside @Diesel lol.  Offensively, he is the ideal fit.  I just couldn't justify moving/benching Cam or Hunter to pursue him.

Taking that out of the equation, would I pull the trigger on a Collins trade....?

Ehhhhhhhhhhh......I dunno man. Just talking hypotheticals and we have a hole at SG?  Yeah, I'd probably do it ya'll. lol 

[Cwell]

12 minutes ago, Wretch said:

I guess I'm in the minority that likes Lavine too.  He is one of those players that has been buried under a narrative and forgotten in a losing system.  To me he's the perfect fit.  Yeah, we lose something defensively...but there's no way to guard him and Trae.  The open looks Trae creates would be like layups to him and his ability to score draws just as much attention for Trae to play off of.  That is a scary combination...

The best part is that he might be sitting in the discount bin as far as availability goes.  I'm gonna be real with you guys...  If I wasn't so high on Cam/Hunter, or if we hadn't drafted both of those guys, I'd die on this hill alongside @Diesel lol.  Offensively, he is the ideal fit.  I just couldn't justify moving/benching Cam or Hunter to pursue him.

Taking that out of the equation, would I pull the trigger on a Collins trade....?

Ehhhhhhhhhhh......I dunno man. Just talking hypotheticals and we have a hole at SG?  Yeah, I'd probably do it ya'll. lol 

There's no perfect fit for another poor defender on this team

[Wretch]

Just now, Cwell said:

There's no perfect fit for another poor defender on this team

Listen, I love defense.  My favorite center of all time is Mutombo and if I were building my dream team, I would start with him over any other center.  I love physical players like Rodman and Charles Oakley.  I don't like combo guards, I like traditional point guards...and I like wings that harass the lanes and play defense.  I say all that to stress the fact that I care about defense and I know what it means.

At the same time, I think defense is one of those things that is over-stated these days and one of those things that people wrongfully try to quantify.  In my opinion, unless you are talking about something directly quantifiable (blocks, steals) then the idea of how good or bad someone's defense is is completely subjective.  Effort, circumstance, and team defense are all more important than trying to quantify individual performance.

I know it is the gospel for some people, as are advanced stats, I just don't buy into it like that.  Let's revisit this in a few years.  I predict that Lavine is going to land somewhere that will change the narrative for him and nobody is going to care about his perceived (or actual if it matters) lack of defense. Agree to disagree, but I'm with Diesel on this.  Again, unless you are talking real numbers - blocks, rebounds, steals - it's all subjective to me and mostly fueled by team performance.  Trae is the same player he was last year, but watch how quiet the people are about his defense as we continue to win. 

James Harden is a "terrible defender" but look at him in the bubble...did he exercise his defense over the summer?  Did he just improve his defense? Or did he just commit to it?

There are certainly things people are limited by that keeps them from becoming good defenders or makes them defensive liabilities...height, speed, bad knees (ie. Mike Bibby), weight (too light in the post or heavy on the perimeter).  Zach is a young guy and he's athletic. He was a fair, if not average defender at one point in his career.  I don't think there's anything keeping him from being a "good defender" except for the popular narrative.

Regardless, I think his offensive capability far outweighs any defensive liability.  Again, agree to disagree.  Let's revisit when he finds himself a better home.  I will humbly eat the crow if I'm wrong.

[AHF]

LaVine has all the physical tools to be a good defender.  He either lacks the defensive BBIQ or the commitment to playing defense.

[Carmine]

32 minutes ago, AHF said:

LaVine has all the physical tools to be a good defender.  He either lacks the defensive BBIQ or the commitment to playing defense.

Both

[terrell]

11 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I'll take Mikal. That give us three guys who can guard 1-4 and can shoot at an elite clip. JC just started having great games in the last two v. Brooklyn who can't defend the PnR. Mikal been an Island all year.

 

You still taking Paskal over Collins? lol

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, terrell said:

You still taking Paskal over Collins? lol

For us, yeah.

[Diesel]

12 hours ago, Wretch said:

I guess I'm in the minority that likes Lavine too.  He is one of those players that has been buried under a narrative and forgotten in a losing system.  To me he's the perfect fit.  Yeah, we lose something defensively...but there's no way to guard him and Trae.  The open looks Trae creates would be like layups to him and his ability to score draws just as much attention for Trae to play off of.  That is a scary combination...

The best part is that he might be sitting in the discount bin as far as availability goes.  I'm gonna be real with you guys...  If I wasn't so high on Cam/Hunter, or if we hadn't drafted both of those guys, I'd die on this hill alongside @Diesel lol.  Offensively, he is the ideal fit.  I just couldn't justify moving/benching Cam or Hunter to pursue him.

Taking that out of the equation, would I pull the trigger on a Collins trade....?

Ehhhhhhhhhhh......I dunno man. Just talking hypotheticals and we have a hole at SG?  Yeah, I'd probably do it ya'll. lol 

Come on to the Hill. 

[Diesel]

12 hours ago, Wretch said:

At the same time, I think defense is one of those things that is over-stated these days and one of those things that people wrongfully try to quantify.  In my opinion, unless you are talking about something directly quantifiable (blocks, steals) then the idea of how good or bad someone's defense is is completely subjective.  Effort, circumstance, and team defense are all more important than trying to quantify individual performance.

I know it is the gospel for some people, as are advanced stats, I just don't buy into it like that.  Let's revisit this in a few years.  I predict that Lavine is going to land somewhere that will change the narrative for him and nobody is going to care about his perceived (or actual if it matters) lack of defense. Agree to disagree, but I'm with Diesel on this.  Again, unless you are talking real numbers - blocks, rebounds, steals - it's all subjective to me and mostly fueled by team performance.  Trae is the same player he was last year, but watch how quiet the people are about his defense as we continue to win. 

 

We saw here recently how we were able to stop Brooklyn defensively after letting them get 145 points two days prior.  We didn't put in a great defensive player.  Kris Dunn didn't come off the bench.    Rondo didn't play that second game.  So what was it that allowed us to hold that team to 96 points?  Effort and a defensive scheme.  I want to vomit when I read these guys take on we don't want said player because he don't have great defensive numbers.  Really??  Larry Bird was not a great defender but his teams won because he stayed in front of his man and played the defensive system of the Boston Celtics.  One on one, Bird would get torched by anybody.  However, when it was Bird and the Celtics.. that made the difference.   And none of them, Save Robert Parrish was great defensively.   All of them bought into the defensive scheme. 

If we had a guy like Lavine... We'd win the east easily.  Our offense would cause more gapping holes in other teams defenses.   

[terrell]

9 hours ago, NBASupes said:

For us, yeah.

Have you seen this dude play lately? lol

[AHF]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

 

If we had a guy like Lavine... We'd win the east easily.  

This is way overrating Lavine.  

[JayBirdHawk]

4 hours ago, terrell said:

Have you seen this dude play lately? lol

not just lately.  Since two month into last season, he hasn't been very good.  

[terrell]

I think the Hawks might've caught a break when Collins turned down 4 yr 90 mill.He still cant create for himself and his playmaking skills are lacking. And we all know his defense is meh..Now he's calling out Trae. lol..I think he's as good as gone because Trae is gonna have to suck for a while before Travis even thinks about moving him so.....................

Edited January 10, 2021 by terrell

[Carmine]

As good of a player as he is, you can't have a player like Collins & defensive sieve like Trae on the court & expect to be successful. God bless his heart he was really trying to cover Trae's shortcomings out there tonight but just couldn't hack it. Even worse when Collins, Trae & Huerter on the floor together, just ghastly. If were gonna build around Trae, we really need to build right. Don't lose J.C for nothing Schlenk.