John is not stepping up like a max player should

[Spud2nique]

7 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Aw yeah, gotta lovehate Chris Crawford.  Parlayed that Knix series to a fat deal. smdh

He was just trying to feed his fam, he had a convo with spree during that sweep  

[JeffS17]

I think everyone is correct thinking about what his replacement would be, but on the flip side, I think you have to also think about what we won't have the money to do in the future.  We're going to have to give hunter the max or close to it if he keeps progressing and playing like he was earlier this year.  Trae is getting maxed.  Capela is at ~$20M.  Where does that leave us 3 years -- the 2023-2024 season and what we can do then is dictated by what we decide to do with John now.

I understand the pay him mentality but there's a fine line between a necessary overpay and an unmovable asset.  I could see it both ways -- everyone clowns us for overpaying and then he keeps getting better and justifies it (similar to jamal murray), but I can also see a situation where we have zero depth in 2-3 years and 1 weak starter.  It's not like the buyout market has guys wanting to come to Atlanta and vets are dying to come here either.  We have to find the right balance and idk if paying Collins $30m+ is going to give us a chance to contend.

I struggle with this one.  I don't really have a strong preference what we do but the flexibility we lose by paying him a max is a real thing that should be considered.

[Spud2nique]

A bird in one hand is worth in the bush. Or something like that.  

[Gray Mule]

Atlanta Falcons face this right now.  High priced wide receiver Jones.  He may be gone, not because they don't want him but they will not have enough cap space to sign all their draft picks if he stays and they don't do something else.

[RedDawg#8]

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Everyone in the NBA gets theirs, and 90% get more than they probably ever should.

If we want to be a franchise that competes at the highest level, we can't be trying to get hometown discounts just because we drafted well and talent develops in to their potential.

JC has done nothing wrong but play well. The team sucked last night, JC shot 6-8. Was he the problem? Maybe he should have been more selfish and demanded the ball. Maybe he should have caused a scene in the huddle and yelled at the coach for more touches.

He is a pro's pro. He is a team first guy. He did not make it about himself when he probably had a right to do so.

Don't blame him for the lack of touches. 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

I think everyone is correct thinking about what his replacement would be, but on the flip side, I think you have to also think about what we won't have the money to do in the future.  We're going to have to give hunter the max or close to it if he keeps progressing and playing like he was earlier this year.  Trae is getting maxed.  Capela is at ~$20M.  Where does that leave us 3 years -- the 2023-2024 season and what we can do then is dictated by what we decide to do with John now.

I understand the pay him mentality but there's a fine line between a necessary overpay and an unmovable asset.  I could see it both ways -- everyone clowns us for overpaying and then he keeps getting better and justifies it (similar to jamal murray), but I can also see a situation where we have zero depth in 2-3 years and 1 weak starter.  It's not like the buyout market has guys wanting to come to Atlanta and vets are dying to come here either.  We have to find the right balance and idk if paying Collins $30m+ is going to give us a chance to contend.

I struggle with this one.  I don't really have a strong preference what we do but the flexibility we lose by paying him a max is a real thing that should be considered.

In 3 years, the 2023-2024 season:

1. I will assume the salary cap will also be higher than the $112 million it is right (currently projected for $120 million)

2. The assumption is Hunter will get a max - but there is no guarantee

3. Gallo will have expired the year prior (if he gets his last year guaranteed), if he is back it won't be on a $20 mil deal

4. Bogi will be in his last year if he picks up his last year option - what if he doesn't pick up the 4th year option and he leaves in FAcy the prior year?

5. Capela will have expired and may or may not be on a new deal with the Hawks.

 

[REHawksFan]

5 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

In 3 years, the 2023-2024 season:

1. I will assume the salary cap will also be higher than the $112 million it is right (currently projected for $120 million)

2. The assumption is Hunter will get a max - but there is no guarantee

3. Gallo will have expired the year prior (if he gets his last year guaranteed), if he is back it won't be on a $20 mil deal

4. Bogi will be in his last year if he picks up his last year option - what if he doesn't pick up the 4th year option and he leaves in FAcy the prior year?

5. Capela will have expired and may or may not be on a new deal with the Hawks.

 

Yeah, I'm not basing JC's contract on how it might play out in 3 years.  Too much can and will happen between now and then.  I think you just have to make a decision based on the current team and current situation and then let it play out. 

To be honest, I'm not really concerned about being stuck with some immovable contract.  In the last several years we've seen plenty of nasty contracts get moved.  The Hawks have acquired several.  Unless he has some catastrophic injury, JC is a valued player in the NBA that will have a market, even if the Hawks overpay for him now.  

[JeffS17]

29 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

In 3 years, the 2023-2024 season:

1. I will assume the salary cap will also be higher than the $112 million it is right (currently projected for $120 million)

2. The assumption is Hunter will get a max - but there is no guarantee

3. Gallo will have expired the year prior (if he gets his last year guaranteed), if he is back it won't be on a $20 mil deal

4. Bogi will be in his last year if he picks up his last year option - what if he doesn't pick up the 4th year option and he leaves in FAcy the prior year?

5. Capela will have expired and may or may not be on a new deal with the Hawks.

 

Player by player analysis is ultimately irrelevant -- the question is do you want a max tied up in JC?  Maxes scale with the cap so that point is also irrelevant.  I'm just saying you have a lot less flexibility and you have a max player that is, from what we've seen so far, a very low value max.

 

I feel like we've had this same conversation over and over lol...

[Final_quest]

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

I think everyone is correct thinking about what his replacement would be, but on the flip side, I think you have to also think about what we won't have the money to do in the future.  We're going to have to give hunter the max or close to it if he keeps progressing and playing like he was earlier this year.  Trae is getting maxed.  Capela is at ~$20M.  Where does that leave us 3 years -- the 2023-2024 season and what we can do then is dictated by what we decide to do with John now.

I understand the pay him mentality but there's a fine line between a necessary overpay and an unmovable asset.  I could see it both ways -- everyone clowns us for overpaying and then he keeps getting better and justifies it (similar to jamal murray), but I can also see a situation where we have zero depth in 2-3 years and 1 weak starter.  It's not like the buyout market has guys wanting to come to Atlanta and vets are dying to come here either.  We have to find the right balance and idk if paying Collins $30m+ is going to give us a chance to contend.

I struggle with this one.  I don't really have a strong preference what we do but the flexibility we lose by paying him a max is a real thing that should be considered.

It is a struggle, but Gallinari will be gone by then.  Plus the cap goes up and Ressler is willing to spend over the cap.  I think Collins provides a piece that we can't just let go.  Reminds me of the big contract Joe Johnson signed, and we were able to trade him to Brooklyn still.  

[JayBirdHawk]

2 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I feel like we've had this same conversation over and over lol...

Of that we can agree.

[aali34]

JC usually starts slow coming back from not playing and then picks it up. I think he'll be fine.

Anyone notice he's been attempting more Euro's and Spin-moves? Would be good for him to develop a face up game.

[bleachkit]

It would be nice if we could get JC on deal that pays about 20 per. Probably not going happen.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

6 hours ago, sturt said:

For some degree of context... and support for alleging that we shouldn't assume what we see at age 23 probably should define what we expect out of a player's career... here's a pair of 23 year olds' stat lines.

Bet you can't guess whose names belong to the stats.

(Yes. Sarcasm, Sheldon.)

 

 

2 different eras and positions . . . but.

 

 

And this was my first guess.

[sturt]

(PM'd you North)

 

Have to like that JC's had 7 30-pt games in 53 he's played.

Have to like that 5 of those 7 came against good-to-very-good competition (... remember, GSW was w/o Curry, so not including them).

Have to not like that in all 5 of those good-to-very-good competition games, those were Ls.

Not sure if that's meaningful, but at least for now, it suggests we're much better off when JC isn't putting up the biggest point totals.

 

[aali34]

13 hours ago, sturt said:

(PM'd you North)

 

Have to like that JC's had 7 30-pt games in 53 he's played.

Have to like that 5 of those 7 came against good-to-very-good competition (... remember, GSW was w/o Curry, so not including them).

Have to not like that in all 5 of those good-to-very-good competition games, those were Ls.

Not sure if that's meaningful, but at least for now, it suggests we're much better off when JC isn't putting up the biggest point totals.

 

To be fair those Ls were all under LP. 

[HawkingAwesome]

Hawks will match for sure

[bird_dirt]

TL;DR version: he will get paid on his potential, not for who what his stats this season are worth.

No one is going to pay the man at a rate of what he is doing today. He's still super young (23?) 4 years away from hitting his peak. Then 3 or 4 peak years after that.

He has progressed and expanded his game every year. He is going to get paid based on his ability to continue growing both physically and mentally. He may not be all star level now, but his trajectory leads that way at least. I have no doubts he's going to make the all star team more than once in his career. 

If he was a lazy player, growth wouldn't be as much of a factor, but he's by all accounts a disciplined, accountable player. PEDs kinda tarnished that a bit of course. But remember how much the story him being from a military family played into his personal development?

[macdaddy]

I love what Nate is doing but don't really understand JC's role in the offensive since Nate took over.   Very rarely posts John up which is a shame because he is exceptional at scoring on face up jumpers near the hoop.  When they do give him the ball it's at the 3 point line where he is forced to drive and often turns it over.   

[Carmine]

Cuz' he's not a max player & giving him one will hamper this teams future.

[kg01]

All deals are tradeable, especially for players who aren't old.  We aren't talking about Kevin Love making mid 30's while obviously past his prime.