Official Game Thread: Hornets at Hawks

[terrell]

51 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I keep asking this and people say he’s ok, then he shows out every few games like last year’s Capela. I’m confused as to his health but I can’t wait to get OO back. 
 

He is our future center, if he stays healthy sooner than folks think which makes Capela expendable.I love Clint when he goes hard but this bunny layup missing stuff stinks.

We're gonna need another young center to go with Okongwu imo... Preferrably a 7'ftr who can stretch the floor and defend like Mobley. (who that guy is who knows)

OO size worries me as our fulltime center unless he starts running the offense at times like Draymond..lol...He's a helluva young defender, I just wish he was 2-3 inches taller... 

Hopefully he's been working on his shot and handle..

Get well soon OO......We could use you...Capela is a LIABILITY right now....

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by terrell

[AHF]

17 hours ago, terrell said:

I didnt say he wasnt the best player..I said he was 2nd option...Dumars and Vinny closed out games..

1988-89 Champion Pistons

#1 in PPG - IT

#1 in FGA/GM - IT 

How about in the big games?  

ECF & NBA Finals - IT took 45 more FGA than the next closest player (Dumars) in the series against the Bulls and Lakers; IT took 63 more shots than Vinnie Johnson in those two series.

1989-90 Champion Pistons

#1 in PPG - IT

#1 in FGA/GM - IT 

How about in the big games?  

ECF & NBA Finals - IT took 11 more FGA than the next closest player (Dumars) in the series against the Bulls and Trailblazers; IT took 93 more shots than Vinnie Johnson in those two series.

[terrell]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

1988-89 Champion Pistons

#1 in PPG - IT

#1 in FGA/GM - IT 

How about in the big games?  

ECF & NBA Finals - IT took 45 more FGA than the next closest player (Dumars) in the series against the Bulls and Lakers; IT took 63 more shots than Vinnie Johnson in those two series.

1989-90 Champion Pistons

#1 in PPG - IT

#1 in FGA/GM - IT 

How about in the big games?  

ECF & NBA Finals - IT took 11 more FGA than the next closest player (Dumars) in the series against the Bulls and Trailblazers; IT took 93 more shots than Vinnie Johnson in those two series.

Ok I give you guys IT over 30 years ago..... lol..But like I said totally different kind of team around him..And the closer doesnt mean he takes the most shots....

Edited December 6, 2021 by terrell

[AHF]

2 hours ago, Dynamo said:

Is there a reason Capela is playing if he’s hurt ?

I don't know that Capela is hurt but he is clearly wildly inconsistent right now.  Why would he play at less than 100%?  I'd speculate it is lack of centers on the roster with OO still hurt.

[Atlantaholic]

2 hours ago, Dynamo said:

Is there a reason Capela is playing if he’s hurt ?

The achilles is probably just a chronic thing that won't go away. 

[AHF]

Just now, terrell said:

Ok I give you guys IT.. lol..But like I said totally different team around him..And the closer doesnt mean he takes the most shots....

As I pointed out, IT did take the most shots.  When  you dissect it a little more, you see that in the close games in those Finals that Detroit won IT's shot count went up.

• In the 1989 Finals, the Pistons played two games where they won by 6 points or less.  IT had 20+ shots in both while averaging 12 in the games they won more comfortably.  
• In the 1990 Finals, the Pistons played four games where they won by 6 points or less.  IT shot 20+ shots in all four games while only putting up 8 FGA in the one game they won comfortably.  

When things were tight, the Pistons relied on Thomas to run the offense and to take the shots.  

Watch Thomas shoot them to victory down the stretch:

 

[terrell]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

As I pointed out, IT did take the most shots.  When  you dissect it a little more, you see that in the close games in those Finals that Detroit won IT's shot count went up.

• In the 1989 Finals, the Pistons played two games where they won by 6 points or less.  IT had 20+ shots in both while averaging 12 in the games they won more comfortably.  
• In the 1990 Finals, the Pistons played four games where they won by 6 points or less.  IT shot 20+ shots in all four games while only putting up 8 FGA in the one game they won comfortably.  

When things were tight, the Pistons relied on Thomas to run the offense and to take the shots.  

Watch Thomas shoot them to victory down the stretch:

 

He had other guys he could rely on in the clutch.....VJ, Dumars, and Dantley.. Not to mention having 3 enforcers around him.. You cant compare that team with this Hawks team at all.....Not saying IT wasnt a great player...

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by terrell

[AHF]

This isn't to say that Trae can't do better running the offense and can't improve his shot selection.  At 23 years old, IT was in his 4th year as a pro winning 46 games, winning his first playoff series of his career, and getting bounced in the second round of the playoffs.  Trae has a ways to go before he is the 28 and 29 year old veteran that Thomas was when he won his rings.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, terrell said:

He had other guys who were clutch that he could rely on....VJ, Dumars, and Dantley.. Not saying IT wasnt a great player...

Trae is on his way to being a great player too.  Nobody took more shots than JC yesterday FWIW.  Hopefully Nate will emphasize that Trae/JC action for the rest of the season.  Right now, the Hawks don't have anyone who can create their own shot and be as good a scorer for their era as VJ, Dantley or Dumars were.  If you look at the Pistons replays, you'll see a lot of iso ball by all of them.  That was the nature of the era where it was easy to clear the floor due to the illegal defense rules.  It wasn't a team that was all about ball movement for the best shot (there are always examples of that but it wasn't the focus of the offense).

[terrell]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

Trae is on his way to being a great player too.  Nobody took more shots than JC yesterday FWIW.  Hopefully Nate will emphasize that Trae/JC action for the rest of the season.  Right now, the Hawks don't have anyone who can create their own shot and be as good a scorer for their era as VJ, Dantley or Dumars were.  If you look at the Pistons replays, you'll see a lot of iso ball by all of them.  That was the nature of the era where it was easy to clear the floor due to the illegal defense rules.  It wasn't a team that was all about ball movement for the best shot (there are always examples of that but it wasn't the focus of the offense).

I agree. Hawks need more shot creators...AND Tough guys around Trae...

There were times where Isiah didn't finish the game when Joe & Vinnie was scoring and Isiah was cool with it cause they all had one common goal: Winning!

Edited December 6, 2021 by terrell

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, terrell said:

Please never use Bill Russel and Capela in the same sentence. lol

But like I said, your're kinda proving my point having to go back 70 years.....

 

 

Your point should stand up to time.   Understand, there haven't been many championship teams (since that seems to be your qualifier).   Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, and Lebron are 20 championships right there...

That doesn't help your point, that just shows how great those players are. 

For some reason you negated Steph.   And you act like Isiah was second fiddle to Vinny Freakin Johnson.  Now.. if you say.. how many got to the finals... I believe that your point would be null.  But you and I both know that... because it's easier to hide your point behind the greatness of 4 great players and then call TIME on everybody else. 

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

17 hours ago, Diesel said:

Oh... 
You mean bad shots...  No Doubt.   I hate the 30 footer. 

However, that doesn't mean that he doesn't run the offense.   He's young.  Young players do dumb shit.  ask Kobe fans.   Ask Shaq Fans.    Trae is a Young STAR ..  Blazing hot.   Breaking records.  He has to navigate that.  But that doesn't mean that he doesn't run the offense. 

 

 

As for the 30 footers:

 

Trae is an uncharacteristic 1 - 7 on shots 35+ feet.  Last year, he was 8 - 13 ( 61% ) . . . 2 yrs ago, he was 10 - 23 ( 44% )

On shots from 30 - 34 feet this season, Trae is 15 - 35  ( 43% ).  So all of those shots that people claim are so horrible, he's making at a 40%+ rate.

 

You guys think it's a bad shot, because he's shooting it from so deep.  But if he's making  43% on those shots, it's not a bad shot folks.  The key to that shot is that he takes it in rhythm, and not rush it.   Trae literally shoots better from 30 - 34 feet, than he does from 25 - 29 feet ( 38% ) or 20 - 24 feet ( 36% ).

Even the great Steph Curry shoots only 30% from the 30 - 34 foot range . . and 42.5% from 25 - 29 feet.

[terrell]

6 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Your point should stand up to time.   Understand, there haven't been many championship teams (since that seems to be your qualifier).   Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, and Lebron are 20 championships right there...

That doesn't help your point, that just shows how great those players are. 

For some reason you negated Steph.   And you act like Isiah was second fiddle to Vinny Freakin Johnson.  Now.. if you say.. how many got to the finals... I believe that your point would be null.  But you and I both know that... because it's easier to hide your point behind the greatness of 4 great players and then call TIME on everybody else. 

 

 

Steph is 6'3 and one of the best off ball players ever..

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, terrell said:

I agree. Hawks need more shot creators...AND Tough guys around Trae...

There were times where Isiah didn't finish the game when Joe & Vinnie was scoring and Isiah was cool with it cause they all had one common goal: Winning!

There are times where Trae doesn't take the most shots down the stretch as well and the more we develop our guys so they can create shots the more we will see that happen.  JC is our best non-Trae scorer but he isn't someone who scores on his own very much in the way that Joe and Vinnie did.  I think we will always need Trae to score to be successful but there should be more games where he can take a back seat as our guys become more capable of carrying more of the offensive load.  We just aren't there yet.

 

[terrell]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

There are times where Trae doesn't take the most shots down the stretch as well and the more we develop our guys so they can create shots the more we will see that happen.  JC is our best non-Trae scorer but he isn't someone who scores on his own very much in the way that Joe and Vinnie did.  I think we will always need Trae to score to be successful but there should be more games where he can take a back seat as our guys become more capable of carrying more of the offensive load.  We just aren't there yet.

 

Good post..

That's all Im saying.. I dont see us winning a championship relying on Trae as much as we do..

Edited December 6, 2021 by terrell

[AHF]

1 minute ago, terrell said:

Steph is 6'3 and one of the best off ball players ever..

Steph also doesn't run an offense in the way that Magic, IT, Stockton, etc. did.  He is a small shooting guard (who is capable of passing but not special at it) and probably the best one in history who fits that label.  That team does move the ball exceptionally well but probably Green is the team's point forward more than anyone is a point guard.

[terrell]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Steph also doesn't run an offense in the way that Magic, IT, Stockton, etc. did.  He is a small shooting guard (who is capable of passing but not special at it) and probably the best one in history who fits that label.  That team does move the ball exceptionally well but probably Green is the team's point forward more than anyone is a point guard.

Thats why he and Trae arent a good comparison imo..

[AHF]

1 minute ago, terrell said:

Good post..

That's all Im saying.. I dont see us winning a championship relying on Trae as much as we do..

If the Hawks (including Trae) haven't matured by the time Trae is in his late 20's, we won't be winning championships.  But my hope is that we'll see some highlight games where Trae takes over on the way to a ring like the Pistons can look back on with IT.  IT is the best historical parallel to Trae for me.  

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, terrell said:

Steph is 6'3 and one of the best off ball players ever..

Trae is 6'1".   What's your point?  Steph is also good on Ball.   His Usage rate matches Traes during his championship years.. so again.. What's your point?

[AHF]

Just now, terrell said:

Thats why he and Trae arent a good comparison imo..

I agree there are some major differences.  He is a 6'2'' ball dominant guard with rings, though.  He put up a near 35% usage rate last season and is over 32% this year.  (Trae was 33% usage rate last year).  Steph's focus is scoring when he touches that ball.  (He took more than 6 shots more than the next highest FGA/gm on the team last year.)  He is a different kind of player but is a high usage little (for the NBA) man.