Official Game Thread: Hunk-o'-Hawks at Lakers

[terrell]

9 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

As awful as Trae defense is, his offensive value is twice as much. The issue with Trae is his defense hurts our perimeter defenders and makes them worse than what they are. I don't think addressing defense is how you fix it because his offensive value is how you will win. You gotta get better offensive bigs, that's who he plays though. 

Trade jc bogi and whatever else for KAT. Or go after Ben and try to help the defense..We gotta do something..

Bogi gotta go. He's too inconsistent offensively and terrible defensively..

He's a bench player. You can't start him next to Trae .That's one of the main problems with the defense. He was better last season..He's trash now..

They get cooked on the perimeter and then the other team offense open up.

Case in point, when we got stops and cut the lead to like 8 from 18 with 5 to go. The backcourt was Trae and Delon.

Time Delon checked out and Bogi checked in We got cooked all over again.

And it happened IMMEDIATELY WITH PENETRATION..

Edited January 8, 2022 by terrell

[NBASupes]

For Atlanta to win, it will be from overwhelming offense. Trae is an one man machine offensively. He's elite a PnR playmaker and scorer. Elite floater. His shooting has gotten to elite levels. Trae's having one of the best offensive seasons in decades. We haven't seen someone with his offensive impact since LeBron. That said, like the mid 80s Bulls, you can stop the Bulls by stopping the engine. Even the f***ing Rockets beat us by committing to stop Trae in the 4th. This is how teams are beating us. Trae is an one man wrecking crew. He plays through bigs, that's what we need. What MJ needed was someone to get him the ball in good spots and do his dirty work. Trae needs a big who can score at will. Force the defense to gameplan for him so he can have full offensive control. 

We aren't that far, we really aren't. But aren't close. Our expected record before today's game was above .500. We aren't Charlotte where we lack personnel. I still don't think we figured out what works around Trae yet. Last year, we got lucky. Nate slowed us down. Teams struggled to shoot OPEN 3s against us and we had an excellent offense which caught teams off guard because before the Reddish/Hunter injuries, we weren't a good offense. It was very clunky, Cam's lack of shooting really hurt us. The bench was terrible like usual. Trae was actually bad for his expectations and was barely an impact. 

I just think when teams go to shut down Trae, we gotta have bigs who can make you pay. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

Trae had his worst game in awhile and LA still couldn't guard him if their life depended on it. It was nothing they can do. They couldn't stop him at all. A lot of his turnovers was simply due to trying to do too much as the others just didn't show up today. 

[terrell]

14 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

For Atlanta to win, it will be from overwhelming offense. Trae is an one man machine offensively. He's elite a PnR playmaker and scorer. Elite floater. His shooting has gotten to elite levels. Trae's having one of the best offensive seasons in decades. We haven't seen someone with his offensive impact since Jordan. That said, like the mid 80s Bulls, you can stop the Bulls by stopping the engine. Even the f***ing Rockets beat us by committing to stop Trae in the 4th. This is how teams are beating us. Trae is an one man wrecking crew. He plays through bigs, that's what we need. What MJ needed was someone to get him the ball in good spots and do his dirty work. Trae needs a big who can score at will. Force the defense to gameplan for him so he can have full offensive control. 

We aren't that far, we really aren't. But aren't close. Our expected record before today's game was above .500. We aren't Charlotte where we lack personnel. I still don't think we figured out what works around Trae yet. Last year, we got lucky. Nate slowed us down. Teams struggled to shoot OPEN 3s against us and we had an excellent offense which caught teams off guard because before the Reddish/Hunter injuries, we weren't a good offense. It was very clunky, Cam's lack of shooting really hurt us. The bench was terrible like usual. Trae was actually bad for his expectations and was barely an impact. 

I just think when teams go to shut down Trae, we gotta have bigs who can make you pay. 

Fans fell for the banana in the tail pipe with that playoff run, this team is poorly constructed and has no leader.

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, terrell said:

Fans fell for the banana in the tail pipe with that playoff run, this team is poorly constructed and has no leader.

Chuck was right. We played against the COVID-sped up superteam in the Knicks and they weren't built for the playoffs. 

Then we played against a flawed Sixer team that star player limitations killed them against us and their superstar stamina just couldn't hold up as he burnt out. 

Milwaukee didn't take us serious for one game and after that, they pretty much dominated the series. 

It was a fluke. 

 

What's not a fluke is the talent. But outside of that 2nd half in a sped up season, we been playing this way for years. Are we improved from 2021 1st half, not at all. Trae is much better as is Collins defensively but offensively, Collins is the same. Capela's regression is noted. I do think benefited from the sped up season more than most like Jokic and Gobert. Cam is much more productive but his impact has regressed as has his role till recently outside of today. Hunter has been hurt. Okongwu improved but hurt. Gallo and Lou need to join Vince at ESPN/Bally's. Wright has been an upgrade over Rondo and Dieng over Bruno. 

Defense got worse as expected. We went from 1st half Trae/Cam/Hunter/JC/Capela to whatever the hell been doing. 

Offense got better. We had an excellent offense with Trae struggling, now he's been elite and we seen the offense go to new heights but we are somewhat one dimensional. 

We went from average offense/below average defense to elite offense/tragic defense and we are one dimensional this year, we wasn't even that last year. Based on the 1st half last year, this team looks similar. Maybe a tad better but not really. 

We put so much blame on LP and rightfully so. His pace was insane and it caused too many turnovers. Not enough passing, a lot of early shot clock jumpers, and we rarely ran clean sets. Nate changed things for the better. I just don't know if Nate is as good defense wise as LP. LP knew defense was king due to Trae. I think Nate sees offense as king due to Trae. I think both are right. Defense matters, you can't be worst than average and win defensively. But offense is how we will win a title if we do. 

This is going to be tough. 

[NBASupes]

If all fails, I think Atlanta should even consider trading Okongwu and Gallo for Sabonis and a expiring filler from a 3rd team. Atlanta needs a legit 5 who can post up and draw double teams at a good clip, he can finish with either hand, he can pass it so when the double comes, JC who's always moving is a threat. He's great at PnR screening and finishing. I think he would end those lulls we go through offensively when teams try to stop our engine. 

I know trading Okongwu is probably a bad idea but we need an offensive star more than defensive star with Trae that's a big. Trae can carry a team but he needs someone that can force the defense to suck in. That's how we go from great offensive rating to elite offense that works in the RS or playoffs and I think this will make us closer to a very good team. We will always be lethal in the playoffs because Trae elevates his defense. 

[marco102]

7 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

If all fails, I think Atlanta should even consider trading Okongwu and Gallo for Sabonis and a expiring filler from a 3rd team. Atlanta needs a legit 5 who can post up and draw double teams at a good clip, he can finish with either hand, he can pass it so when the double comes, JC who's always moving is a threat. He's great at PnR screening and finishing. I think he would end those lulls we go through offensively when teams try to stop our engine. 

I know trading Okongwu is probably a bad idea but we need an offensive star more than defensive star with Trae that's a big. Trae can carry a team but he needs someone that can force the defense to suck in. That's how we go from great offensive rating to elite offense that works in the RS or playoffs and I think this will make us closer to a very good team. We will always be lethal in the playoffs because Trae elevates his defense. 

It's okay Supes. Just lower your expectations and it won't hurt as much. 

I'm done being angry and frustrated with this team.  They are young and now they see you can't win off of reputation alone. 

If the defense improves in the next couple of weeks, I'll start investing emotionally again.

What's the saying? It's getting late early? 

[NBASupes]

7 minutes ago, marco102 said:

It's okay Supes. Just lower your expectations and it won't hurt as much. 

I'm done being angry and frustrated with this team.  They are young and now they see you can't win off of reputation alone. 

If the defense improves in the next couple of weeks, I'll start investing emotionally again.

What's the saying? It's getting late early? 

My expectation is lower and it's been that way for weeks. I just don't see a path if our offense stalls with the bigs. So much of what we do is Trae+bigs. Like I've said, Trae has little temperament for wings. 

[NBASupes]

The more I think about it, I think Sabonis would help us more than I even though at first. The biggest issue we have is our defensive unit:

Trae/Cam/Dre/JC/Capela

Dre gets the ball, he analyzes. Ball movement basically stops. We already don't have much player movement outside of JC. Trae standing at the top of the key and Cam is in his rightful position in the corner. 

Facts: Trae is a win for the D in this spot. The D wins. Cam is always win when there is no movement in this spot for the D. JC cannot create his own shot and Clint clearly cannot create his own shot. At this point, we are at a stalemate. One of the reasons this grouping never worked too well for us even if it looked good on paper. 

Change Capela with Sabonis. Same thing. Difference is, now we got Sabonis who not only can fight for position, but he can create his own shot in the post but he also draw double teams. So now, even Hunter's man doesn't want the ball in the post. He's playing loose, Hunter kills that coverage and next play, he plays Hunt tight, Hunt goes to Sabonis. Sabonis goes to work 1v1 and easily scores. Now the D is sunked in, this is when Trae can go even more nuts. This actually makes our defensive unit work. The big issue with that unit is the offense stalls out way more than the offense with Kev/Bogi. Sabonis is also one of the best passsing bigs in the NBA. 

Okongwu has potential to be as good overall and he's a defensive big which by NBA standards of today's game, is WAY more valuable than offensive bigs. That said, with Trae offensive impact and strengths, I think going with an offensive star over defensive star or potential defensive star is better. 

[NBASupes]

21 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

The more I think about it, I think Sabonis would help us more than I even though at first. The biggest issue we have is our defensive unit:

Trae/Cam/Dre/JC/Capela

Dre gets the ball, he analyzes. Ball movement basically stops. We already don't have much player movement outside of JC. Trae standing at the top of the key and Cam is in his rightful position in the corner. 

Facts: Trae is a win for the D in this spot. The D wins. Cam is always win when there is no movement in this spot for the D. JC cannot create his own shot and Clint clearly cannot create his own shot. At this point, we are at a stalemate. One of the reasons this grouping never worked too well for us even if it looked good on paper. 

Change Capela with Sabonis. Same thing. Difference is, now we got Sabonis who not only can fight for position, but he can create his own shot in the post but he also draw double teams. So now, even Hunter's man doesn't want the ball in the post. He's playing loose, Hunter kills that coverage and next play, he plays Hunt tight, Hunt goes to Sabonis. Sabonis goes to work 1v1 and easily scores. Now the D is sunked in, this is when Trae can go even more nuts. This actually makes our defensive unit work. The big issue with that unit is the offense stalls out way more than the offense with Kev/Bogi. Sabonis is also one of the best passsing bigs in the NBA. 

Okongwu has potential to be as good overall and he's a defensive big which by NBA standards of today's game, is WAY more valuable than offensive bigs. That said, with Trae offensive impact and strengths, I think going with an offensive star over defensive star or potential defensive star is better. 

Now the bench is: Wright/Bogi/Kev/Open/Capela Let's say is Craig from Indy. Wright/Bogi/Kev/Craig/Capela

That 2nd unit now has a lot of defense, shooting, guys who can handle the rock, and Capela to split with Sabonis. 

I like this trade idea. I think it helps. Capela and Sabonis are carbon copies but vice versa. Capela is an average offensive player with severe flaws while being a defensive star. Sabonis is an average defensive player with physical limitations while being an offensive star. I like it. 

[niremetal]

33 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Now the bench is: Wright/Bogi/Kev/Open/Capela Let's say is Craig from Indy. Wright/Bogi/Kev/Craig/Capela

That 2nd unit now has a lot of defense, shooting, guys who can handle the rock, and Capela to split with Sabonis. 

I like this trade idea. I think it helps. Capela and Sabonis are carbon copies but vice versa. Capela is an average offensive player with severe flaws while being a defensive star. Sabonis is an average defensive player with physical limitations while being an offensive star. I like it. 

I've always thought Sabonis would be a close-to-ideal offensive complement to Trae. His ability to pass out of the post would just open up the offense so much, both off screen rolls (he makes great touch passes) and by making it so we don't have to rely so much on screen rolls in the first place.

But...the problem would remain the defense. Even with Sabonis, we wouldn't be averaging 120+ a game on offense--and that's what we'd need to average to make up for the number of points we've been giving up for the last month (and that's just to play .500 ball, which in and of itself won't be enough to get the team back into playoff contention).

Sabonis is a solution, just not to the problem that must be solved for this team to compete again. As long as the defense remains this poor, offensive firepower won't save us. We're bottom 3 in defensive rating after last night. Literally no team has ever contended with defense like that (which makes sense--if you're giving up more points on average than 27 other teams, no amount of scoring will be enough to win 60% of games).

The one thing a Sabonis trade might do is shake the team up enough to get some fire back in their belly, which *could* solve the defensive issues. Right now, the team and the coaching staff just seem to expect the problem to fix itself.

[h4wkfan]

This biggest fixes to this team will be health and chemistry. 
 

and the next time trae falls asleep on defense and his guy gets an easy layup because trae is ball watching. He goes straight to the bench. He HAS to at least act like he cares - if he doesn’t - that so definitely contagious. 

[Plainview1981]

This team just sucks... Healthy.... Unhealthy.... It sucks d*ck.

Trae is a good player, but a poor leafer, and not very intelligent. He says things like "Nothing really matters and I am bored until the playoffs start" or other such crap.

There is no sense of urgency... The players don't care. The whole league is basically a joke. This team and this league is basically unwatchable.

Playing the video game is probably the best way to get your fix these days.

[NBASupes]

56 minutes ago, h4wkfan said:

This biggest fixes to this team will be health and chemistry. 
 

and the next time trae falls asleep on defense and his guy gets an easy layup because trae is ball watching. He goes straight to the bench. He HAS to at least act like he cares - if he doesn’t - that so definitely contagious. 

There always was a sense of urgency from the coaches last year. Nate would bench Trae if he felt Trae was playing too wild as he did yesterday. Now he's limit that greatly this year but defensively. It's been WOAT shit from Trae and it hurts his wings more than anyone 

4 hours ago, niremetal said:

I've always thought Sabonis would be a close-to-ideal offensive complement to Trae. His ability to pass out of the post would just open up the offense so much, both off screen rolls (he makes great touch passes) and by making it so we don't have to rely so much on screen rolls in the first place.

But...the problem would remain the defense. Even with Sabonis, we wouldn't be averaging 120+ a game on offense--and that's what we'd need to average to make up for the number of points we've been giving up for the last month (and that's just to play .500 ball, which in and of itself won't be enough to get the team back into playoff contention).

Sabonis is a solution, just not to the problem that must be solved for this team to compete again. As long as the defense remains this poor, offensive firepower won't save us. We're bottom 3 in defensive rating after last night. Literally no team has ever contended with defense like that (which makes sense--if you're giving up more points on average than 27 other teams, no amount of scoring will be enough to win 60% of games).

The one thing a Sabonis trade might do is shake the team up enough to get some fire back in their belly, which *could* solve the defensive issues. Right now, the team and the coaching staff just seem to expect the problem to fix itself.

No one is fixing the problem which is defense until Trae gives a shit about defense. He's like Zion last year for the Pels. He causes his defense to rotate so much to protect him that the integrity of the defense is shattered. The difference is, Zion could play some help self and use his athleticism to get some occasional positive plays. Defense is just the worst I've seen. His man defense isn't bad on average but his PnR defense is the worst in the NBA and during the RS, his off ball defense is trash outside of the first three games each season and the playoffs where he gives a shit on that end.

It's not a shock, in the games without Trae playing, we were keeping teams at 101 ppg. With Trae, the last time a team didn't score 130+ points was our Orlando win. 

I been saying this for years. I don't believe Trae has tremendous stamina. I believe he puts so much energy in offensively, that he just doesn't have much for anything else. Watching him and John Wall when I was a WAS season ticket holder is so similar. Trae is obviously better than Wall but some of their issues are similar. Makes me wonder how well Trae game is going to age once he passes his prime. 

I disagree about the points. I think with Sabonis, he completely opens up our offense. I actually believe he can unlock Cam and Hunter as well where they can get them AD to Melo passes that they just never get from our bigs who dont demand coverage when they have the rock from the defense outside of their man in particular.

Edited January 8, 2022 by NBASupes

[bleachkit]

Phoenix won with Steve Nash, who can't be much better than Trae defensively. There must be some way to fix this, or at least improve.

[NBASupes]

17 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Phoenix won with Steve Nash, who can't be much better than Trae defensively. There must be some way to fix this, or at least improve.

Trae is better and worse defensively. He's a capable defender. The issue is, Trae rarely puts energy defensively in the regular season. His off ball defense was actually solid in the playoffs and he avoided getting screened like he had the holy ghost in the playoffs as well. 

Nash on the other hand was always the same. Terrible POA defender. Terrible man defender. Suprising decent PnR defender. Very good help side defender. A positive team defender. 

It's fair to say Nash has always been a superior RS defender to Trae and even younger, he was superior. Nash knew the fundamentals of defense. He lacked the ability to guard anyone due to his lack of lateral quickness and physical attributes. 

Nash defense was about to less is more. The old man defense against the young bucks. Trae is like, defense takes too much energy and i don't have a lot and I dont really care for it or good at it so i will focus on what i do and have the others help just in case. He also doesn't have good defense awareness during the RS and ball watches a lot. Nash really wasn't a ball watcher at all.

Edited January 8, 2022 by NBASupes

[JayBirdHawk]

I'm still pissed with TLC in the rotation and his minutes vs Huerter and Reddish - someone, anyone, please make it make sense.

However, on the defensive side - yes we gave up 134 points, and the easiest thing is to blame Trae for ALL of it....However, there is no accounting for the 24 fast break points off the live ball turnovers. For an already struggling defense, that just cannot happen and that attributed greatly to the 134 point total. 

The video below clearly lays it out.

 

 

[NBASupes]

7 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm still pissed with TLC in the rotation and his minutes vs Huerter and Reddish - someone, anyone, please make it make sense.

However, on the defensive side - yes we gave up 134 points, and the easiest thing is to blame Trae for ALL of it....However, there is no accounting for the 24 fast break points off the live ball turnovers. For an already struggling defense, that just cannot happen and that attributed greatly to the 134 point total. 

The video below clearly lays it out.

 

 

We have been a horrendous transition defense since Buds last year in Atlanta. This is normal for us when we have so many live ball turnovers.

[JayBirdHawk]

Y'all really need to stop talking about defense and just play some.

 

 

[Dynamo]

The Hawks need leadership in every aspect from the owner,front office, coaches and players.