this will either be Trae's wake up call or the beginning of his demise

[Atlantaholic]

5 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

The only elite offensive players you can't built around are either crazy, low bbiq, selfish chuckers or all of those things.   Trae is none of those things.   The idea that he's that unique of a player or difficult to build around is super interesting to me.   

Think about if you didn't know him at all and someone said I can give you a guy who can be a 30 point efficient scorer, get to the line, hit threes, but also be the best passer in the league and lead the league in assists but the down side is he's a poor defender.  Are any GM's going to say 'poor defender? well hell no then.  too difficult to build around. we'll take Bagley instead'.  Ok maybe that's too far. 

Worth noting as well that PG defense is really not as key as defense on the paint or the perimeter. It's much easier to hide Trae than it would be a bad defensive center or bad defensive wing player. Problem with pairing Trae with "another" scorer is that if we pair him with another "star" wing player is that if that star wing player is a poor defender we are pretty much doomed at being a poor defensive team. Poor defensive teams don't win championships. Ever. The worst defensive team in the last 40 years to win a championship ranked 12th in defensive rating.

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

...Clyde the Glide Drexler.

Drexler wasn't on the 1st championship team.  that team had Kenny the Jet Smith, Mario Eli, and Big Shot Bob Horry on it.

[NBASupes]

51 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Worth noting as well that PG defense is really not as key as defense on the paint or the perimeter. It's much easier to hide Trae than it would be a bad defensive center or bad defensive wing player. Problem with pairing Trae with "another" scorer is that if we pair him with another "star" wing player is that if that star wing player is a poor defender we are pretty much doomed at being a poor defensive team. Poor defensive teams don't win championships. Ever. The worst defensive team in the last 40 years to win a championship ranked 12th in defensive rating.

We need great bigs.

[Peoriabird]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

We need great bigs.

It would definitely help

[Peoriabird]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

If you have 3 teams built this way, only two of them can make the finals.  You should be looking for common characteristics among championship teams and/or championship contenders.  

You can count the number of championships without an MVP level talent or without multiple stars on one hand.  The Pistons had 4 guys who each made at least 3 All-Star games and the 5th starter made the All-Defense team four times.  Two of the other starters were also multiple All-Defense selections including multiple DPOY for Ben Wallace.  They are an extreme anomaly for lacking an MVP level player but are so far from a team of nobodies that I'm kind of scratching my head you brought them up in this context.

I love that your team of nobodies is Sikma plus:

Dennis Johnson 5x All-Star, 2x All-NBA, 9x All-Defense, HOFer

Gus Williams 2x All-Star

John Johnson 2x All-Star

Lonnie Shelton All-Star and All-Defense

Fred Brown All-Star

Paul Silas 2x All-Star, 5x All-Defense

 

Sikma himself was a 7x All-Star, All-Defense and HOFer.

So your idea of a "team of nobodies" is 7 All-Stars, 4 All-Defense, and 2 HOFers.  LMAO  This is just too rich.

Jack sikma averaged 15.8/9.8 and .9 bpg.  This dude is a Hof'er?

During the 78/79 season when they won the championship

Paul Silas averaged 5.6/7 EF% 42.3

Dennis Johnson 16/6 EF% 43.4%

Gus Williams 19.5/3 EF% 49.5

Lonnie Shelton 13/6

Fred Brown 14/3 EF% 46.9

John Johnson 11/5 EF% 43.4

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

Jack sigma

Is he related to Sikma? 

[shakes]

1 hour ago, Atlantaholic said:

Worth noting as well that PG defense is really not as key as defense on the paint or the perimeter. It's much easier to hide Trae than it would be a bad defensive center or bad defensive wing player. Problem with pairing Trae with "another" scorer is that if we pair him with another "star" wing player is that if that star wing player is a poor defender we are pretty much doomed at being a poor defensive team. Poor defensive teams don't win championships. Ever. The worst defensive team in the last 40 years to win a championship ranked 12th in defensive rating.

our biggest issue with our defense is our guards and wings routinely get beat off the dribble clean which causes our center to come over and help which of course leaves the other team's 5 wide open for either a pass or an uncontested rebound opportunity.

Hunter, Trae, Bogi, Huerter...they are all victim of this multiple times per game.

We need Trae and our other guards/wings to stay in front of their guys.  I'd rather see them giving up jumpers as opposed to giving up wide open driving lanes.

[Spud2nique]

15 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

We need great bigs.

I wanted Trez a couple years back because he’s a big load. I would kill for a Jonas Val from the Pels, that boy and Trae would be tough to stop.

I agree we need BIGGER BIGS but not super talented, just Jonas big. Although Jonas got a nice lil skill set to boot for a big. What’s his contract like?Can we get him?

[AHF]

9 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Jack sigma averaged 15.8/9.8 and .9 bpg.  This dude is a Hof'er?

 

[Peoriabird]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

 

Only 1 person you mentioned had an EF% over 50 and nobody averaged over 20 points per game something you thought that Hunter should average right now

[AHF]

14 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Only 1 person you mentioned had an EF% over 50 and nobody averaged over 20 points pr game that you thought that Hunter should average

First, I've never said anything about wanting Hunter to average 20 ppg.  What I said was that I hoped he could have elevated his offensive game to the 17 ppg level he was at to start last season.  And I said that if he had done that, being left open like Miami did would open the door to him raising his average into the 20's this series.  Guess who on Seattle was left open?  Nobody.  It was a different era defensively where you couldn't cheat like you can today for one thing.

And of course the different era plays directly into efg%. I've never talked about efg% with Hunter ever.  Go find me a post if you think I have.  But in 1979 the league average for efg% was .485%.  This season the average is .532%.  So a guy who had a .500% efg% back at the time the Sonics won that ring was well above league average while today that player is even farther below league average.  Some context is needed

But of course this is all like asking about the price of tea in China since we were talking about the construction of championship teams and that has nothing to do with this other than you mentioning Seattle as a "team of nobodies" when in fact they were far from it with outstanding depth and balance.

A "team of nobodies" with 7 All-Stars, 4 All-Defense, and 2 HOFers.  Ridiculous.  You can admit you just didn't even look at their roster before making that point but I doubt you will be able to own making a mistake and you'll try to continue to move the goal posts to avoid reconciling what these guys were doing against their peers in their careers and the idea that the team was Sikma and a bunch of nobodies.

You called me a liar this week about the comments on Hunter after you said there "wasn't a peep" about anyone but him.  I then went and catalogued all the negative comments about him after the game was over and proved to you that both Huerter and JC had more negative comments.  Any apology from you?  Any recognition that you were off base?  Nope.  

Reminds me of the time you were confident enough to make a bet with me.  You lost that one too.  Did you honor your word?  Nope.  Tried to pretend like it never happened.  Just like this.  Past time to pay the piper on that bet.

[Peoriabird]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

A "team of nobodies" with 7 All-Stars, 4 All-Defense, and 2 HOFers.  Ridiculous.  You can admit you just didn't even look at their roster before making that point but I doubt you will be able to own making a mistake and you'll try to continue to move the goal posts to avoid reconciling what these guys were doing against their peers in their careers and the idea that the team was Sikma and a bunch of nobodies.

 

 

They were not all stars during that season except maybe 2 but if you look at their numbers, they look like a bunch of roll players to me and even the all stars were probably selected based on the team's record.  sorta like the Hordford/Milsap/Korver/Teague Hawks

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Atlantaholic said:

Worth noting as well that PG defense is really not as key as defense on the paint or the perimeter. It's much easier to hide Trae than it would be a bad defensive center or bad defensive wing player. Problem with pairing Trae with "another" scorer is that if we pair him with another "star" wing player is that if that star wing player is a poor defender we are pretty much doomed at being a poor defensive team. Poor defensive teams don't win championships. Ever. The worst defensive team in the last 40 years to win a championship ranked 12th in defensive rating.

Paul George!

[AHF]

36 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

They were not all stars during that season except maybe 2 but if you look at their numbers, they look like a bunch of roll players to me and even the all stars were probably selected based on the team's record.  sorta like the Hordford/Milsap/Korver/Teague Hawks

You really think that the Hawks had 7 All-Stars and 5 guys who made multiple All-Star teams?

Seattle had 2 All-Stars that year and 5 other guys who were good enough to make the All-Star game in other seasons.  The Hawks had two guys on their roster who made the All-Star game in any other season and no shock that was Sap and Horford.

Put another way, Seattle's roster had 20 All-Star appearances (12 by the top two players and 8 by the others) while the Hawks had 11 (9 by the top two players and 2 by the others).  Seattle had two HOFers.  Not sure that the Hawks will have any although I think Horford has a chance.

On the issue of how many All-Stars they had that year, I looked at the top 3 teams in both conferences and Seattle's 2 All-Stars was as many or more than all of the others.  Not sure how having the same or more All-Stars than the other top teams is a differentiator.

[hylndr11]

55 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Paul George!

lol, the puter gonna die on that hill.  not saying i dont want it him at all, just that I would be super shocked if he leaves LA

[Peoriabird]

17 hours ago, AHF said:

You really think that the Hawks had 7 All-Stars and 5 guys who made multiple All-Star teams?

Seattle had 2 All-Stars that year and 5 other guys who were good enough to make the All-Star game in other seasons.  The Hawks had two guys on their roster who made the All-Star game in any other season and no shock that was Sap and Horford.

Put another way, Seattle's roster had 20 All-Star appearances (12 by the top two players and 8 by the others) while the Hawks had 11 (9 by the top two players and 2 by the others).  Seattle had two HOFers.  Not sure that the Hawks will have any although I think Horford has a chance.

On the issue of how many All-Stars they had that year, I looked at the top 3 teams in both conferences and Seattle's 2 All-Stars was as many or more than all of the others.  Not sure how having the same or more All-Stars than the other top teams is a differentiator.

There is difference between having been an all star and playing Like one. D. Howard was a previous all nba player before coming to the Hawks. Chew on that.

[NBASupes]

19 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

Worth noting as well that PG defense is really not as key as defense on the paint or the perimeter. It's much easier to hide Trae than it would be a bad defensive center or bad defensive wing player. Problem with pairing Trae with "another" scorer is that if we pair him with another "star" wing player is that if that star wing player is a poor defender we are pretty much doomed at being a poor defensive team. Poor defensive teams don't win championships. Ever. The worst defensive team in the last 40 years to win a championship ranked 12th in defensive rating.

I strongly think PG defense is critical when you are as bad as Trae at it. 

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

I strongly think PG defense is critical when you are as bad as Trae at it. 

PG's defense is vastly overrated now

[macdaddy]

48 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

PG's defense is vastly overrated now

I think he's discussing point guard defense ?

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

There is difference between having been an all star and playing Like one. D. Howard was a previous all nba player before coming to the Hawks. Chew on that.

Not sure Dwight Howard has ever been a nobody but I'm going to read that in the light most favorable to you because it is a fair point that guys past their prime shouldn't be treated the same way when they no longer resemble their former selves.  Of the 7 All-Stars on Seattle's team, that applies to 1 of them. 

Which makes me wonder if you actually did the homework before trying to distract from your "team of nobodies" comment which is destroyed just by mentioning HOF/All-Star Dennis Johnson.  Feels like we are just grasping at straws trying to move the goal posts at this point.

Sikma was 23 and an All-Star

NOBODY:  Johnson was 24 and an All-Star

NOBODY:  Gus Williams was 25 and made two All-Star teams in his next 3 seasons (he led the championship team in steals and points and was second in assists; 2nd in total WS)

NOBODY:  Lonnie Shelton was 23 and an All-Star a couple years later for Seattle (he was a key player and the most efficient scorer on the team; >5 WS)

NOBODY:  Fred Brown was 30 and still in his prime years of 5-8 WS per season from age 25-32 (>5 WS in 79)

NOBODY:  John Johnson was 31 and had a higher WS and WS/48 than in his first All-Star season.  Still a key player for this and several more seasons as they won Seattle's only ring.  (His play fell off in the 1981-82 season.)

 

The only guy the "past his prime Dwight Howard" distraction applies to is Paul Silas who was 35 and no longer the player he was when he was an All-Star back in his 20's.  He still played a significant role in the rotation (23 mpg) but clearly wasn't at the level he was at as an AS and didn't play the key role these other guys did on the team.

 

Saying that other than Sikma this team was a "team of nobodies" is a farce.