this will either be Trae's wake up call or the beginning of his demise

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, Packfill said:

The fact that each of Jordan (Pippen), Lebron (Kyrie/Wade/AD), Durant (Curry) needed another HOF caliber player to win a championship (and going back further - Shaq/Kope; Bird/McHale; Magic/Worthy; etc.) is not a screaming endorsement of the Hawks current roster if the goal is to win a championship.  Maybe you can squint and dream on Hunter becoming that guy, but no one else on the roster in my view has that type of potential.  Hope I am wrong on that of course.  

How or if the Hawks acquire that second guy will be Schlenk's legacy.

We used to have some long discussions about what type of roster construction produced championships.  Can't disagree with this.  It is tough to expect any star to win in this era with only sub-AS level players on the roster (let alone no HOF candidates).

[macdaddy]

If you aren't in NY, LA, or Miami(for some reason) you  have one shot to get a superstar player and that's through the draft.  Trae is it for us.   Now getting a second star is always possible when  you have the first and that's where we sit.  

As fans we've poo-poo'd guys like Brandon Ingram, Zach Lavine, CJ Mccollum, Derozan, hell even second tier guys like Clarkson and Wiggins and then they get in the right situation and produce and all of a sudden we want them.   

But you can't be that picky.   The second star has to be available.   That's why to me if Mitchell comes up I get him.  I don't care that much about the defensive issues.  There are other ways to address that that is easier to find than another elite scorer.   

 

[hylndr11]

4 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

If you aren't in NY, LA, or Miami(for some reason) you  have one shot to get a superstar player and that's through the draft.  Trae is it for us.   Now getting a second star is always possible when  you have the first and that's where we sit.  

As fans we've poo-poo'd guys like Brandon Ingram, Zach Lavine, CJ Mccollum, Derozan, hell even second tier guys like Clarkson and Wiggins and then they get in the right situation and produce and all of a sudden we want them.   

But you can't be that picky.   The second star has to be available.   That's why to me if Mitchell comes up I get him.  I don't care that much about the defensive issues.  There are other ways to address that that is easier to find than another elite scorer.   

 

This is my exact issue with all this, schlenk better get to work or else shit, the players have way more control over this than they used to as well, its bleeding into other sports as well but thats another convo, but either way - a lot has to go right to get these guys, theres not that many of them and everyone needs the same shit to improve so, I doubt we even get another guy in here this year, I dont think our guys have much value realistically, I just hope Trae and his Dad understand that , have some patience, and maybe we can trade dudes for higher picks cuz I just dont see us getting back all star for these guys through trades.

Edited April 26, 2022 by hylndr11

[macdaddy]

14 minutes ago, hylndr11 said:

This is my exact issue with all this, schlenk better get to work or else shit, the players have way more control over this than they used to as well, its bleeding into other sports as well but thats another convo, but either way - a lot has to go right to get these guys, theres not that many of them and everyone needs the same shit to improve so, I doubt we even get another guy in here this year, I dont think our guys have much value realistically, I just hope Trae and his Dad understand that , have some patience, and maybe we can trade dudes for higher picks cuz I just dont see us getting back all star for these guys through trades.

Yeah.  that's the truth.   This is where the scouting department needs to come through and figure out who can be an emerging star that we can acquire.   But like you said it's all difficult.  

[Peoriabird]

46 minutes ago, hylndr11 said:

This is my exact issue with all this, schlenk better get to work or else shit, the players have way more control over this than they used to as well, its bleeding into other sports as well but thats another convo, but either way - a lot has to go right to get these guys, theres not that many of them and everyone needs the same shit to improve so, I doubt we even get another guy in here this year, I dont think our guys have much value realistically, I just hope Trae and his Dad understand that , have some patience, and maybe we can trade dudes for higher picks cuz I just dont see us getting back all star for these guys through trades.

Yall keep hanging on to this notion that all you need are 2 starts to win championships.. Don't tell that to the 2 star Trailblazers/Net/Bulls/jazz Timberwolves cause the 1 star Heat/Grizzlies/Mavs have something to say about that. Heck I'll even add Milwaukee to that 1 star list.

[Packfill]

10 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Yall keep hanging on to this notion that all you need are 2 starts to win championships.. Don't tell that to 2 star Trailblazers/Net/Bulls/jazz Timberwolves cause the 1 star Heat/Grizzlies/Mavs have something to say about that. Heck I'll even add Milwaukee to that 1 star list.

Milwaukee and Dallas (though Kidd is definitely a HOFer, but past his prime at that point; Marion and Peja as well) are the only teams in recent memory that have won a title with one true star.  The other teams you have mentioned are or have been contenders, but have not gotten across the finish line.  And of course having two stars is no guarantee of a championship either - it is just one of the traits most common across title teams over the past couple of decades.

The other thing to look at is most title teams are veteran heavy.  So the Hawks could consider a near term run by stockpiling some veterans in exchange for young assets.  Maybe that fails but Trae is still young enough you could retool and take another shot after a rebuild.

[Peoriabird]

5 minutes ago, Packfill said:

The other thing to look at is most title teams are veteran heavy.  So the Hawks could consider a near term run by stockpiling some veterans in exchange for young assets.  Maybe that fails but Trae is still young enough you could retool and take another shot after a rebuild.

Now you're cooking with grease!  You need vets to win championships!!!

[Peoriabird]

I think Wright is one of those vets that you need to hang onto for dear life!!!

[Peoriabird]

13 minutes ago, Packfill said:

Milwaukee and Dallas (though Kidd is definitely a HOFer, but past his prime at that point; Marion and Peja as well) are the only teams in recent memory that have won a title with one true star.  The other teams you have mentioned are or have been contenders, but have not gotten across the finish line.  And of course having two stars is no guarantee of a championship either - it is just one of the traits most common across title teams over the past couple of decades.

The other thing to look at is most title teams are veteran heavy.  So the Hawks could consider a near term run by stockpiling some veterans in exchange for young assets.  Maybe that fails but Trae is still young enough you could retool and take another shot after a rebuild.

If you want to go back we can talk about Stockton/Malone= Nothing...payton/Rainman= nothing. Barkley/Kevin Johnson= nothing. Hardaway/Shaq= nothing. But olauwon and a bunch of nobodies!!! *Ding Ding*

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

If you want to go back we can talk about Stockton/Malone= Nothing...payton/Rainman= nothing. Barkley/Kevin Johnson= nothing. Hardaway/Shaq= nothing. But olauwon and a bunch of nobodies!!! *Ding Ding*

All those teams made the NBA finals.  Most were Michael Jordan away from a ring.  In fact, the only difference for Houston (which had other HOFer for its second ring) was that the others faced the Bulls in the finals while Houston didn't.  If Houston had emerged from the West when MJ and Pippen were waiting, they would be on your list.  If the other teams got to face the Knicks, etc. they might well be champions as well.  They were all legit, short-list NBA championship contenders.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Hawkmoor said:

 

https://mabsidam.com/2021/02/10/can-you-win-a-championship-with-trae-young-as-your-1/

Can You Win A Championship With Trae Young As Your #1

Trae Young An Inefficient Volume Scorer

Trae Young is a throw back volume shooter. Young shoots sub 45% from the field but plays with the belief that his teams best chance at winning is if he can find his rhythm and shoot them to victory, it’s reminiscent of AI in Philly in the early 2000’s. It must be noted however that this style of basketball is very wishy washy when it comes to team results. On one side is Kobe Bryant who led his team to back to back championships being a volume scorer while on the other side are good stats bad team guys like Bradley Beal or Young himself. It’s already worrying that Trae Young is one of the leading faces of the NBA’s current “dribble-dribble-dribble-shoot….” wave but it’s even more concerning when you realize Young is a small guard and this style of basketball is hardest on them as they don’t have the necessary body(well unless you’re AI) to carry the weight of an entire offense.

 

Accepting Trae Young for who he is as a scorer has to be the first correction the Atlanta Hawks make if they are to build an actual championship team around him. In the last 20 years they’ve only been 3 teams who won a championship where the team’s best player in the finals was an undoubtedly a guard;

 

2006 – Miami Heat = Dwyane Wade.

2009/2010 – Los Angeles Lakers = Kobe Bryant.

2015 – Golden State Warriors = Steph Curry.

An Inefficient volume shooter?  

Trae's efficient is the reason like mess like this end up in the bottom of my smoker if it's in print.   Trae is one of the most efficient playing.   

As far as a volume shooter, can you be a volume shooter and a volume passer at the same time?

HM... it's time to abandon the draft day narrative that you have been reading from people who don't even watch Trae.  There are roads to a championship for us.   That road probably has another star attached to Trae.. but to characterize Trae as an inefficient volume shooter is ignorance.

 

 

 

[JeffS17]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

But you can't be that picky.   The second star has to be available.   That's why to me if Mitchell comes up I get him.  I don't care that much about the defensive issues. 

How can you talk about how no championship team has ever had a defensive minded center then suggest we get Mitchell???  I can promise you no championship team has ever had a bottom 5 defense in the league either, and we'd be lucky not to be dead last with that back court.  I don't see how Mitchell can possibly be the answer.

[Peoriabird]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

All those teams made the NBA finals.  Most were Michael Jordan away from a ring.  In fact, the only difference for Houston (which had other HOFer for its second ring) was that the others faced the Bulls in the finals while Houston didn't.  If Houston had emerged from the West when MJ and Pippen were waiting, they would be on your list.  If the other teams got to face the Knicks, etc. they might well be champions as well.  They were all legit, short-list NBA championship contenders.

There were a others like Steve nash's Sun's that didn't make the finals but a Billups piston team and a jack sigma super sonics team of nobodies won a championship

[Peoriabird]

Vince/ McGrady

Paul/Griffin

Paul/Hardin

Embiid/Simmons

[Packfill]

9 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Vince/ McGrady

Paul/Griffin

Paul/Hardin

Embiid/Simmons

No one is debating that there are legions of two-star teams that have not won a championship.  No one.  The fact that there are legions of such teams does not obviate the fact that the overwhelming majority of championships teams over the past couple decades have had two stars.

[JayBirdHawk]

34 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

If you want to go back we can talk about Stockton/Malone= Nothing...payton/Rainman= nothing. Barkley/Kevin Johnson= nothing. Hardaway/Shaq= nothing. But olauwon and a bunch of nobodies!!! *Ding Ding*

...Clyde the Glide Drexler.

[macdaddy]

24 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

How can you talk about how no championship team has ever had a defensive minded center then suggest we get Mitchell???  I can promise you no championship team has ever had a bottom 5 defense in the league either, and we'd be lucky not to be dead last with that back court.  I don't see how Mitchell can possibly be the answer.

My thing on Mitchell is why not?   Yeah i'd rather have someone better than Mitchell but that list of guy's better than Mitchell who are available in trade is very, very, very small.

That's my point is we can sit around and poke holes in guys who are actual ballers because they are too short or suck at D but then we're watching Kevin make one basket in a playoff game again.  

But I get your point.  I'm truly hoping that the front office being way smarter than me finds a better answer than Mitchell.   But I know for sure we need an answer.  We have to take the next step and that next step won't come from within.  

[AHF]

30 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

There were a others like Steve nash's Sun's that didn't make the finals but a Billups piston team and a jack sigma super sonics team of nobodies won a championship

If you have 3 teams built this way, only two of them can make the finals.  You should be looking for common characteristics among championship teams and/or championship contenders.  

You can count the number of championships without an MVP level talent or without multiple stars on one hand.  The Pistons had 4 guys who each made at least 3 All-Star games and the 5th starter made the All-Defense team four times.  Two of the other starters were also multiple All-Defense selections including multiple DPOY for Ben Wallace.  They are an extreme anomaly for lacking an MVP level player but are so far from a team of nobodies that I'm kind of scratching my head you brought them up in this context.

I love that your team of nobodies is Sikma plus:

Dennis Johnson 5x All-Star, 2x All-NBA, 9x All-Defense, HOFer

Gus Williams 2x All-Star

John Johnson 2x All-Star

Lonnie Shelton All-Star and All-Defense

Fred Brown All-Star

Paul Silas 2x All-Star, 5x All-Defense

 

Sikma himself was a 7x All-Star, All-Defense and HOFer.

So your idea of a "team of nobodies" is 7 All-Stars, 4 All-Defense, and 2 HOFers.  LMAO  This is just too rich.

[Atlantaholic]

If we can trade Trae Young for a player better than Trae Young I'm all for it. Barring that, we got really no choice but to built around him so yea, everyone should be hoping we can do that. 

[macdaddy]

4 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

If we can trade Trae Young for a player better than Trae Young I'm all for it. Barring that, we got really no choice but to built around him so yea, everyone should be hoping we can do that. 

The only elite offensive players you can't built around are either crazy, low bbiq, selfish chuckers or all of those things.   Trae is none of those things.   The idea that he's that unique of a player or difficult to build around is super interesting to me.   

Think about if you didn't know him at all and someone said I can give you a guy who can be a 30 point efficient scorer, get to the line, hit threes, but also be the best passer in the league and lead the league in assists but the down side is he's a poor defender.  Are any GM's going to say 'poor defender? well hell no then.  too difficult to build around. we'll take Bagley instead'.  Ok maybe that's too far.