The cobbled together, stuff we held on to during the playoffs mega super rumor and team direction thread.

[Bigjmw]

Capella/Gallo/#44/2023 1st(CHA)/2nd for Ayton/Saric

Edited June 16, 2022 by Bigjmw

[AHF]

31 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

No. I just know Capela is the player PHX wants. I haven't heard much about JC from them. I know its gonna cost Atlanta some assets which they been extremely reluctant to trade beyond in 2022.

Capela makes perfect sense for both teams.  Can't really imagine much of a better fit for them and for us if we traded.

[JayBirdHawk]

31 minutes ago, AHF said:

@JayBirdHawk

@thecampster

Just didn't want this question to get lost.  Thanks in advance!

I keep seeing different things but I will conclude that - Yes you can as long as the deal in totality  is legal under the CBA.

"To give you an example, check out the three-team deal between the Warriors, Nets, and Timberwolves in 2019. In this deal, Golden State acquired D’Angelo Russell on a four-year, $117 maximum contract. The Warriors also received Shabazz Napier and Treveon Graham (but then offloaded after to Minnesota for cash considerations)."

[JayBirdHawk]

15 minutes ago, Bigjmw said:

Capella/Gallo/#44/2023 1st(CHA)/2nd for Ayton/Saric

The maximum salary Phoenix can take back for Ayton ($18 mil) and Saric ($9 mil) is $27 million.

Capela ($19 mil) and Gallo ($21 mil) is $40 million.

This trade can only take place after July 1st, so if Gallo is still with us we have guaranteed his full salary of $21 million.  IF he pushes back his guarantee date, the trade still doesn't work for Phoenix.  The unguaranteed portion of Gallo's contract is worth $8 million in trade for the Hawks but still the full guaranteed amount for Phoenix.

[marco102]

1 hour ago, warcore said:

Don't be playin like last time! 

If you've been paying attention, not saying this directly to you or in a disrespectful way, @NBASupes said in his earlier post that Ayton and Lavine were Atlanta's number one targets.   Lavine is most likely isn't an option anymore.

No idea why everyone just jumped on the Gobert hype train the past few days.  Atlanta is being diligent and setting up fall back plans in case they do not get their number one options. 

I'd be happy with just Ayton and maybe an around the edges move or even swap of Bogi for Brogdon.  If Brogdon is healthy, I know @kg01, that's a big fu if, he elevates the two guard spot with ball handling, shooting, driving ability, playmaking, and defense. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by marco102

[NBASupes]

Here are my takes for far

1. Jazz and Hawks engaged in trade talks months ago for Gobert. Utah made an offer to Atlanta. Atlanta declined the offer and said Hunter is not for trade. They countered with a choice of Capela or Collins and a choice of Huerter or Bogi as well as 16. Utah declined. They engaged seriously with Chicago. Made an offer for Williams and Vecevic. Chicago declined, made a counter offer of Vecevic as the centerpiece and Coby White. They didn't offer 18. That was their final offer. 

Utah engaged with Atlanta again. This time asking for the moon in terms of assets. Atlanta declined and said, that was their final offer. Many have called and been turned away by Utah's price tag and like our 2020 center search where we landed Capela. This one feels the same. The price will be high as long as Atlanta is in the race. Once we are out, his price will drop significantly. Utah is only asking as Atlanta wants to win but it's looking more and more likely, I don't believe a trade is likely with Utah. 

2. I am looking forward to Ayton. Like I said, Ayton is ultimately the decision maker. He will choice where he wants to go. None of the teams interested, DET, ATL, and TOR can force it. Ayton must want to join your team. All of these teams have offers made already that PHX finds suitable. 

3. Atlanta is looking to make one more splash move outside of an Ayton or Gobert deal. Watch for JC, another team has called about him and its Minnesota. Minnesota isn't scared to trade future assets if they think it will lead to winning. They are targeting Tyrus Jones to be their PG of the future in FA. Watch for Connely to make a splash. 

4. Atlanta is still planning on the possibility of paying the LT but it has to be worth it is what I was told.

[marco102]

7 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Here are my takes for far

1. Jazz and Hawks engaged in trade talks months ago for Gobert. Utah made an offer to Atlanta. Atlanta declined the offer and said Hunter is not for trade. They countered with a choice of Capela or Collins and a choice of Huerter or Bogi as well as 16. Utah declined. They engaged seriously with Chicago. Made an offer for Williams and Vecevic. Chicago declined, made a counter offer of Vecevic as the centerpiece and Coby White. They didn't offer 18. That was their final offer. 

Utah engaged with Atlanta again. This time asking for the moon in terms of assets. Atlanta declined and said, that was their final offer. Many have called and been turned away by Utah's price tag and like our 2020 center search where we landed Capela. This one feels the same. The price will be high as long as Atlanta is in the race. Once we are out, his price will drop significantly. Utah is only asking as Atlanta wants to win but it's looking more and more likely, I don't believe a trade is likely with Utah. 

2. I am looking forward to Ayton. Like I said, Ayton is ultimately the decision maker. He will choice where he wants to go. None of the teams interested, DET, ATL, and TOR can force it. Ayton must want to join your team. All of these teams have offers made already that PHX finds suitable. 

3. Atlanta is looking to make one more splash move outside of an Ayton or Gobert deal. Watch for JC, another team has called about him and its Minnesota. Minnesota isn't scared to trade future assets if they think it will lead to winning. They are targeting Tyrus Jones to be their PG of the future in FA. Watch for Connely to make a splash. 

4. Atlanta is still planning on the possibility of paying the LT but it has to be worth it is what I was told.

If they ain't offering KAT or Edwards, hang up the phone Schlenk!!!

[terrell]

10 minutes ago, marco102 said:

If you've been paying attention, not saying this directly to you or in a disrespectful way, @NBASupes said in his earlier post that Ayton and Lavine was Atlanta's number one target.   Lavine is most likely isn't an option.

No idea why everyone just jumped on the Gobert hype train the past few days.  Atlanta is being deligent and setting up fall back plans in case they do not get their number one options. 

I'd be happy with just Ayton and maybe an around the edges move or even swap of Bogi for Brogdon.  If Brogdon is healthy, I know @kg01, that's a big fu if, he elevates the two guard spot with ball handling, shooting, driving ability, playmaking, and defense. 

Brogdon would fit right in at Emory Sports Medicine Complex..

[marco102]

17 minutes ago, marco102 said:

If you've been paying attention, not saying this directly to you or in a disrespectful way, @NBASupes said in his earlier post that Ayton and Lavine were Atlanta's number one targets.   Lavine is most likely isn't an option anymore.

No idea why everyone just jumped on the Gobert hype train the past few days.  Atlanta is being diligent and setting up fall back plans in case they do not get their number one options. 

I'd be happy with just Ayton and maybe an around the edges move or even swap of Bogi for Brogdon.  If Brogdon is healthy, I know @kg01, that's a big fu if, he elevates the two guard spot with ball handling, shooting, driving ability, playmaking, and defense. 

@kg01 my mention didn't work.

[JayBirdHawk]

16 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

They engaged seriously with Chicago. Made an offer for Williams and Vecevic. Chicago declined, made a counter offer of Vecevic as the centerpiece and Coby White. They didn't offer 18. That was their final offer. 

Can you clarify this portion?

What did the Hawks offer initially for Vucevic and Williams? 

[gurpilo]

Brogdon and Turner and picks for Capela and Collins, I can see that as a huge improvement for the Hawks

[theheroatl]

7 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Can you clarify this portion?

What did the Hawks offer initially for Vucevic and Williams? 

He meant Utah wanted those two. 

As for a deal happening between Utah and Atlanta. I think it gets done. Utah will be desperate to move Gobert as things keep souring like Ayton. 

Ayton is a much harder deal and I'm sure Atlanta knows that. You have the Suns with James Jones & Ayton personally as well to convince.

[warcore]

9 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

What did the Hawks offer initially for Vucevic and Williams? 

I believe he's referring to the Jazz -- not the Hawks, that were making these offers for Gobert. 

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

@JayBirdHawk

@thecampster

Just didn't want this question to get lost.  Thanks in advance!

The language is important in understanding this.  The language states, the team signs and immediately trades him to another team.  The signing and trading is 1 action. Signing then packaging, then trading is 3 separate actions.  The language is meant to be understood the act of signing is to trade the player to his preferred destination. One reason you can't "include" other players is to get around the matching requirements (ie byc). This is why all multiplayer deals from the sending team in a sign n trade are completed as 2 simultaneous trades. Although you may see some deals (sign n trade) that look like multi player, its actually 2 separate deals.  I talked last week about the order trades are processed and it mattering. In a simultaneous trade, the 2 separate trades happen at once in order to satisfy salary trade rules. This is one way to get around salary x doesn't line up with salary y.  If Trade 1 pushes a team under the cap, their half of trade rules don't apply and then trade 2 can go through.  In most cases, the media reports this as one trade but you can see it in their language.  They'll usually say, "GW send Bob and Mil send harry, sally, Barney. GW will also receive Fred and send a 2nd round pick to Mil."  Although it seems like 1 deal, its actually 2.  

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap05.htm

The language in SnT situations is: 

79. Can a free agent be signed and immediately traded?

Under no circumstances can a team sign and then trade another team's free agent. But there is a rule that allows teams to re-sign their own free agents for trading purposes, called the sign-and-trade rule. Under the sign-and-trade rule, the player is re-signed and immediately traded to another team. This is done by adding a clause to the contract which stipulates that the contract is invalid if the player's rights are not traded to the specific team within 48 hours.

A sign-and-trade deal can be made even with players who have been renounced, but cannot be made when the player is signed using the Mid-Level, Bi-Annual or Disabled Player exceptions. Sign-and-trade contracts must be for three years or longer, but only the first season of the contract must be guaranteed. The three year minimum (even though the last two seasons may be non-guaranteed) ensures that the new team will not acquire Bird rights to the player any sooner than if they had signed him directly, because they would have to waive him, after which they wouldn't be able to use Bird rights (see question number 26).

One complication with sign-and-trade deals is that the signed player can immediately become a BYC player (see question number 76 for more information on BYC), so the player's BYC value must be used when determining whether the trade is allowed.

If a sign-and-trade contract contains a signing bonus, then either team can pay it. By default the team that signs the player pays the signing bonus (as with any other contract), but since a sign-and-trade is in essence a contract with the receiving team, the teams can agree that the receiving team will pay it. However, any portion that is paid by the signing team counts toward the $3 million limit for cash included in a trade (which in effect limits the portion of a signing bonus that can be paid by the signing team to $3 million).

If a sign-and-trade contract contains a trade bonus, then the bonus is not earned upon the trade that accompanies the signing, but rather on the first subsequent trade.

See question number 83 for more information on how long a team must wait after signing a contract before they can trade a player.

 

Language from the CBA:  

https://cdn.nba.com/manage/2021/03/2018-19-CBA.pdf

"Additional Trade Rules (1) Sign-and-Trades.  Teams are prohibited from signing a free agent pursuant to an agreement that the player will later be traded to another team unless the free agent being signed is the team’s own free agent.  In addition, these “sign-and-trades” are permitted only if (i) the contract is for three or four years, (ii) the first year of the contract is fully guaranteed, (iii) the contract is entered into prior to the first day of the regular season, and (iv) the player finished the prior season on the signing team’s roster.  The maximum annual salary increase for a sign-and-trade is 5% of the salary in the first year of the contract.  A team may only acquire a free agent via a sign-and-trade if the team’s Team Salary post-transaction and at all times thereafter during that Salary Cap Year 10 --does not exceed the Tax Level for the then current Salary Cap Year plus the Tax Apron Amount (see Section I.F.(3)(e) above).  "

 

Now let me uncomplicate this: Logically speaking a sign n trade is team B's way of signing a player they could not otherwise afford. When you sign a player, you don't get 3 players for 1.  Sign n trade is an agreement to sign n trade that player. Not an agreement to sign n trade a player but take my garbage. The language of the CBA prohibits circumvention of the CBA. Therefore a simultaneous trade where 2 separate trades happen is the only way to follow league rules.  The media doesn't always report it, but that is what happens.  The main reason for "other players" is that team B has rules related to the apron and the luxury tax. The language is and at all times thereafter during the salary cap year. So in many cases, the trade of a player (say Capela for Ayton) would count 19 million for trade purposes but would increase the team's salary by another $11 million. On a cash strapped team, that would/could push them over the apron. The simultaneous trade allows them to send extra salary they might not be permitted to in clean up that room. Since the trade is "simultaneous" at no time is the team above the apron.  If the trade was the player (and assets) they would have written the language as "or with other players or picks" but they didn't. You can trade "the player" any other shenanigans to make the trade work is a separate, simultaneous trade.

Nobody argue...I won't respond.

Edited June 16, 2022 by thecampster

[JayBirdHawk]

4 minutes ago, gurpilo said:

Brogdon and Turner and picks for Capela and Collins, I can see that as a huge improvement for the Hawks

I do not.

[JayBirdHawk]

2 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

He meant Utah wanted those two. 

 

1 minute ago, warcore said:

I believe he's referring to the Jazz -- not the Hawks, that were making these offers for Gobert. 

wellll...I totally had a brain fart and misread all of that. 

[thecampster]

when something can be multiple players, the CBA is very good about saying player(s).

 

For ex:

"Room A team may sign players to the extent it has “Room.”  Room is either:  (i) the amount by which a team’s Team Salary is less than the Salary Cap; or (ii) the amount of an “Exception” to the Salary Cap. Examples: (1) (2) (3) D. Salary Cap = $101.869 million; Team Salary = $85 million Team has Room of $16.869 million and may sign player(s) for up to $16.869 million. Salary Cap = $101.869 million; Team Salary = $110 million Team has $8.641 million Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level Salary Exception.  Team has Room of $8.641 million and may sign player(s) for up to $8.641 million. Salary Cap = $101.869 million; Team Salary = $130 million; Tax Level = $123.733 million Team has $5.337 million Taxpayer Mid-Level Salary Exception.  Team has Room of $5.337 million and may sign player(s) for up to $5.337 million. "

[kg01]

12 minutes ago, marco102 said:

@kg01 my mention didn't work.

Dang, you must really want all the schmoke huh?

But alas, I'm out of the flame game.  I've decided to let everybody have their hair-brained ideas.  I'm gonna stop shooting everything down so have at it.  It's a free country......

.... or maybe kg's tryna build up receipts for later use.

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, kg01 said:

Haha, finally.  All it took was some felonies.

I still like him. He’s got a lil crazy in him, like yours truly. 

[Spud2nique]

24 minutes ago, marco102 said:

@kg01 my mention didn't work.

That’s cuz you came in the lane weak with it your $hit was immediately recognized and swatted out… by squawk.. 

I mean I think..