The Mega Super Rumor Thread (Part 2)

[terrell]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I get the anger. Losing Kevin for these two and a protected pick is wack. 

That said, Holiday is a decent rotation player and played in big moments for Nate in Indiana and played well. 

Harkless did the same in Portland. These aren't scrubs. They just are role players. Kyle was one too. He overachieved in Atlanta. Ideally, you want all players to overachieved on your squad. 

Hopefully, these two can do just that. 

When Kev doesnt do jack in Sac what will they say then?

Are we really crying about 12 points and 2 assists with bad D from our starting 2 guard at 16 million a year?

Edited July 2, 2022 by terrell

[NBASupes]

Just now, terrell said:

When Kev doesnt do jack in Sac what will they say then?

Are we really crying about 12 points and 2 assists from our starting 2 guard?

Kevin can be so much better than what he was in Atlanta. This feels like the Cam trade all over again

[Final_quest]

3 minutes ago, sturt said:

Your penchant for making understatements and overstatements is exhausting sometimes. Gotta tell ya.

Well I think we need to realize that Murray is a massive upgrade over Huerter.  We already have Bogi, who was one of the top bench scorers over the last couple months of the season.  We have less impact need for Huerter over Holliday at this point.  The pick has a good shot to bring us something tangible and needed.
  
The .653 thing is also exhausting, but it's not worth rehashing.  It's cherry picking winning streaks, and claiming them as our actual results.  Makes no sense.  I've heard the argument a dozen times.  

[RandomFan]

8 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Supes,  Watch this game from Jalen vs the G-League Knicks.  I know its G-League but what I want you to notice is how effortless he's making it all look. Dude looks like he just fell into 35 pts/15 boards.  Look at his dribble/finish game. I'd give a months salary for Hunter to make things look this easy.  This guy needs big club reps to figure out the defensive rotation thing. He's already better offensively than 2/3rds of our current team.  He is not going to spend large swaths of time at College park this season.

Yep. The clincher for me to think JJ is going to be top 4 in the bigs rotation is easy: the Hawks apparent willingness to trade away both PFs from last years roster in Gallo and JC, without bringing in an outside replacement so far. You only do that if you think you have a starter and backup already on the roster: Big O and JJ it would appear.

3 minutes ago, ABH said:

If nate played him.more last year along with Cooper they would improve faster..but nate won't 

That's what the G-league was for. They got far more minutes than they would have gotten as rookies in the NBA. 

 

[sturt]

7 minutes ago, terrell said:

Damn Hes 33.. Not 40.. lol

  

9 hours ago, Sothron said:

Holiday was bad last season. He's what 40 years old now? I'm trying to think of how many fringe NBA players actually get better when they are old and getting worse. I can't really think of any.

This.

And sorry to have thought North said this, Soth.

We'll be fortunate if Justin even just maintains what little he did to make SAS better last season. Regression is pretty likely.

 

(And apologies... see @marco102?... I really do get it mixed up who said what sometimes... hehe.)

[theheroatl]

5 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

My guy said the gap between what KD wants on your squad after the trade makes a KD trade difficult. This is the same KD that left OKC as a FA because he didn't want the team he went to be depleted of their roster talent. It might be awhile before KD is traded.

I agree 1000x.. the dude needs a reality check.. NBA has some serious cap controls.

But DurJuanTrae would be a great big 3 if the dude could see it and gel his personality (unlikely).

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by theheroatl

[Plainview1981]

58 minutes ago, sturt said:

.653

This doesn't change that Cam and KH are both gone for very little...And Hunter might not even be better than Marvin.

Travis has been better at trading and FA as relative to his draft picks being all that great.

People would give Travis high markings for drafting Trae, but his drafting(which is what we're talking about here) hasn't been that great since.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Plainview1981

[Peoriabird]

29 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Unless this deal was done to set up something else then it makes zero sense OTHER than to save Ressler luxury tax money this season and in future seasons.

I keep hearing this and asking myself, what deal would Justin Holiday and Moe Harkless be setting up?  Why would any team say to Atlanta, If you can manage to get those guys on your team then we will trade with you?

[sturt]

24 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

The .653 thing is also exhausting, but it's not worth rehashing.  It's cherry picking winning streaks,

No.

Here is what is exhausting. You don't even know "exhausting."

"Exhausting" is laying out a conclusion, laying out the logic that leads to that conclusion...

only for others to come along after that, and not even engage the logic leading to the conclusion in their attempt to dismiss the conclusion.

They just... you just.. dismiss it. And you pretend that's good enough.

No.

Debunk away, if you can.

If.

But dismissiveness isn't an argument. Dismissiveness is just dismissiveness.

It's an attitude that gives a person leash to feel comfortable and self-satisfied... to wall-off the logic, and pretend his/her own conclusion is stout, even when it's glaringly, vividly, loudly not the case.

 

I've established precisely why the Real Hawks' .653 is the correct measurement of this roster we've had.

 

The only semi-rational attempt to debunk that has amounted to a single retort...

"But what about the MIA series?!? How on earth can you not take that to implode the regular season results?!?"

And that retort has been thoroughly debunked by the facts of the context of that series. Thoroughly.

Every time we've went down that road, the "retorters" have had no answer to that. That is to their credit. They didn't make something up and try to extend the discussion. They leave the conversation because who can argue the facts that we were in an incredibly bad place (again, due to the Great Recession and Gumbo Hawks) and we were facing a team who Real Hawks could more than match offensively (given the accumulated evidence of 60 2021-22 regular season games), but were not even barely in the same universe with them defensively.

Please stop. Or engage in a substantive conversation that actually wrestles with the evidence and the facts.

[terrell]

19 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Kevin can be so much better than what he was in Atlanta. This feels like the Cam trade all over again

We shall see...

[terrell]

21 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Kevin can be so much better than what he was in Atlanta. This feels like the Cam trade all over again

We forgot abput Cam real quick.. I expect the same for Kev..

[Atlantaholic]

25 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

So who scores off the bench? Bogi? Holiday brothers aren't giving you much offense. 

Bogi, JJ, OO and hopefully the rook. 

[sturt]

15 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

This doesn't change that Cam and KH are both gone for very little

Kevin's departure is a mistake.

It's the trade that's the problem, not that he was drafted.

He's an excellent player for a #19 pick, almost no one can dispute.

 

Cam's departure is also a mistake, but it's his own doing, not Schlenk's.

He has the talent, and he had an opportunity, but his mindset was that he wanted a bigger role given to him.

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, Atlantaholic said:

Bogi, JJ, OO and hopefully the rook. 

Also this is when the stagger will be most important between Trae and Murray.  Murray will probably lead the bench scoring.

[enrique]

12 hours ago, sturt said:

I'd never heard of it. And skepticism is just my nature. Would want to study it further to see its strengths/weaknesses.

Thanks for the link.

 

Not sure if you've happened to come across the handful of times I've posted this... so forgive if you've seen it already, and especially forgive if you've already ascended to the logic of it...

 

 

Looks like I have my reading list cut out for me ! And I noticed someone said that EPM doesn't include Defense. It absolutely does bring defense into the mix. It is why Trae drops precipitously from near the top of the ratings to just outside the top-10. Again, it isn't perfect (none of the catch all do), but it is the best we have at predicting outcomes for games over the past decade.

[sturt]

2 minutes ago, enrique said:

Looks like I have my reading list cut out for me 

 

2-3 minutes, tops.

[Final_quest]

14 minutes ago, sturt said:

No.

Here is what is exhausting. You don't even know "exhausting."

"Exhausting" is laying out a conclusion, laying out the logic that leads to that conclusion...

only for others to come along after that, and not even engage the logic leading to the conclusion in their attempt to dismiss the conclusion.

They just... you just.. dismiss it. And you pretend that's good enough.

No.

Debunk away, if you can.

If.

But dismissiveness isn't an argument. Dismissiveness is just dismissiveness.

It's an attitude that gives a person leash to feel comfortable and self-satisfied... to wall-off the logic, and pretend his/her own conclusion is stout, even when it's glaringly, vividly, loudly not the case.

 

I've established precisely why the Real Hawks' .653 is the correct measurement of this roster we've had.

 

The only attempt to debunk that has amounted to a single retort...

"But what about the MIA series?!? How on earth can you not take that to implode the regular season results?!?"

And that retort has been thoroughly debunked by the facts of the context of that series. Thoroughly.

Every time we've went down that road, the "retorters" have had no answer to that. That is to their credit. They didn't make something up and try to extend the discussion. They leave the conversation because who can argue the facts that we were in an incredibly bad place (again, due to the Great Recession and Gumbo Hawks) and we were facing a team who Real Hawks could more than match offensively (given the accumulated evidence of 60 2021-22 regular season games), but were not even barely in the same universe with them defensively.

Please stop. Or engage in a substantive conversation that actually wrestles with the evidence and the facts.

I did engage months ago, but I don’t want to rehash the same disagreements.  I remember stating a valid case, but it’s not worth the time so that’s where dismissiveness comes in.  An argument can be won with velocity and volume of words, and I’m not going to jump in to satisfy the volume you would require.  
We lost a lot of games not due to injury or Covid.  Players called the team out.  The media.  The GM.  The owner.  This board.  I don’t know anyone who shares your view, and besides the “real Hawks” are gone so it’s really not worth talking about.  

[terrell]

56 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I remember similar the sky is falling posts when we signed Kyle Korver.  Guys were saying the move to bring in Korver was gonna ruin our franchise.  For our team the wing has a simple job, play defense and hit an open three.  In the case of Solo it was simply play average defense.  

Yep.. We got rid of the Bazemore contract(Huerter)

 

We scored 114 ppg last year. If we didn't make anymore moves we still have a top 3 offense with plenty of scoring and enough shooting. Trae 25, Murray 20, Collins 17, Dre 15, Bogi 15, Capela 10, and OO 10. That is 112 points. Not counting J Holiday, A Holiday or JJ.

 

Last year we scored off 3's and Trae passes. This year we will score much more off of dribble drives, and points off turnovers. The diversified scoring will help us against the 5 switch defenses like Miami and Boston.

 

 The same way scoring makes playing defense easier, playing defense will make offense easier. I belive that last year our 4th quarter offense struggled, because we knew we couldn't get stops. The pressure of having to produce 30 point 4th quarter weighed on us.

Edited July 2, 2022 by terrell

[ABH]

40 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

Yep. The clincher for me to think JJ is going to be top 4 in the bigs rotation is easy: the Hawks apparent willingness to trade away both PFs from last years roster in Gallo and JC, without bringing in an outside replacement so far. You only do that if you think you have a starter and backup already on the roster: Big O and JJ it would appear.

That's what the G-league was for. They got far more minutes than they would have gotten as rookies in the NBA. 

 

And people think they are going to be 2nd string this year? And AJ lol

[ABH]

20 minutes ago, sturt said:

Kevin's departure is a mistake.

It's the trade that's the problem, not that he was drafted.

He's an excellent player for a #19 pick, almost no one can dispute.

 

Cam's departure is also a mistake, but it's his own doing, not Schlenk's.

He has the talent, and he had an opportunity, but his mindset was that he wanted a bigger role given to him.

Yeah @ 19 good pick..wish him the best..Cam has the talent but also can't stay healthy..I think he only has that dog in him here and there..rest of the time he could care less..enjoy those minutes in NY..lol