The Hawks Backcourt: Trae and Dejounte

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, Gray Mule said:

Could you mean "Plastic man?"

No doubt plastic was one of my favs and we haven’t had a long wing like defender as good as him since DM, but not him, it’s almost like Stacey Augmon and Pippen, it’s like he gets the steal and the setting of his feet before liftoff, this player wasn’t a Hawk, I almost wanna say like Mike Jordan (ok people I’m not saying he’s Jordan) just the way he gets set and then up for his breakaway dunks. 
 

Maybe it’s Mike.. I don’t know  

 

But length and look of body prototype is definitely plastic.

[Final_quest]

17 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

No doubt plastic was one of my favs and we haven’t had a long wing like defender as good as him since DM, but not him, it’s almost like Stacey Augmon and Pippen, it’s like he gets the steal and the setting of his feet before liftoff, this player wasn’t a Hawk, I almost wanna say like Mike Jordan (ok people I’m not saying he’s Jordan) just the way he gets set and then up for his breakaway dunks. 
 

Maybe it’s Mike.. I don’t know  

 

But length and look of body prototype is definitely plastic.

Maybe Clyde Drexler?  

[Spud2nique]

5 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Maybe Clyde Drexler?  

No but he does glide like Clyde for sure. Maybe it’s in my imagination or something but I saw it in the first game and again in game 2, it’s like he takes a push type dribble up, almost like a dunk contestant before he two hands slams it, it’s kinda like a mix of Mike and Scottie but I can’t help that it’s one guy, not Tmac or Vince either, altho Vince cuz he did that dunk contest set type dribble before the wham ! 

[Atlantaholic]

12 hours ago, Gray Mule said:

Could you mean "Plastic man?"

His frame and defense is very reminiscent imo. 

[HawkingAwesome]

DeJohnTraEllaEr

[StonedDogs]

I may get hate or be called a hater but I am disappointed in Trae game. Still forces up shots to get his numbers, still shoots low % threes, still doesn't let the offense come to him. It's like he's always looking for the homerun/youtube highlight play. He wants to shimmy and shake his chills so bad. I love how Murray plays though. It's just night and day. He seems more team oriented 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, StonedDogs said:

I may get hate or be called a hater but I am disappointed in Trae game. Still forces up shots to get his numbers, still shoots low % threes, still doesn't let the offense come to him. It's like he's always looking for the homerun/youtube highlight play. He wants to shimmy and shake his chills so bad. I love how Murray plays though. It's just night and day. He seems more team oriented 

Trae will lead the league in assists and will probably score about 23 ppg.   He should also be an allstar.   You will also watch his three % rise.   Just wait. 

 

[Jdawgflow]

3 hours ago, StonedDogs said:

I may get hate or be called a hater but I am disappointed in Trae game. Still forces up shots to get his numbers, still shoots low % threes, still doesn't let the offense come to him. It's like he's always looking for the homerun/youtube highlight play. He wants to shimmy and shake his chills so bad. I love how Murray plays though. It's just night and day. He seems more team oriented 

I love Trae as well but agree with you I have been disappointed in how much he is forcing things to “get his” when everyone else (especially John and Dre) have been playing so well.  

I know he is doing great with assists and his shots are going to start falling more but I have played enough over the years to have a good idea what those other guys are thinking about Trae with his hero ball right now.  There have to be some eye rolls when he is forcing shots.

I also agree with Diesel that Trae is going to shoot better and will be an Allstar.  And there will be games where we need Trae to go off.  
 

My hope is Trae does a little less looking for his shot and little more looking to feed the hot hand(s) when he is not the hot player provided others are doing well (which they have so far).  
 

But I also fully recognize the need for Trae to take over sometimes like in the playoffs two years ago in that Milwaukee game to give us a shot to win.  I do feel that need will be few and far between now though with DJ and an improved John and Dre.

Ok, now y’all can fire away at StonedDogs and me.  Can I have my blind fold first?  And gum please, no smoking here.

[Final_quest]

2 hours ago, StonedDogs said:

I may get hate or be called a hater but I am disappointed in Trae game. Still forces up shots to get his numbers, still shoots low % threes, still doesn't let the offense come to him. It's like he's always looking for the homerun/youtube highlight play. He wants to shimmy and shake his chills so bad. I love how Murray plays though. It's just night and day. He seems more team oriented 

It's not just you.  That is actually a great summary of what bothers most people about Trae.  However, look at his actual numbers from last year, or even any of the prior 3 years, but last year in particular was efficient and had undeniable positive team outcomes.  Compare Trae last year to prime Iverson when AI averaged about 30 points but was 30% 3p, 41% 2p, 5 assists, and 4 turnovers.  Trae was 28 points on 38% 3p, 51% 2p, 9.7 assists, 4 turnovers with 90% FT.  He is one of the most efficient volume scorers in the paint with his floaters and drives.  His playmaking stats in terms of the offense he creates for his team is at an elite level compared with the rest of the league.  We had the lowest turnover percentage in the league.  

Our trouble last year was more when Trae was off the court.  One reason we started to play better as a team is we improved the bench unit playing Bogi, Delon, Gallo, and Okongwu.  

People call Trae's logo 3's bad shots, but I think it's an emotional argument.  He has I think the best fg% from that range of anyone who takes the long range 3's with regularity.  My main reason for supporting the long range 3's is the amount of court space it gives statistically the best playmaker in the league to operate.  He makes enough of them to draw his defender further out and then he will often pass them by the time he gets to the 3 point line.  Now he has a ton of space to assess if he should pass to an open shooter, throw a lob, hit a floater, or drive to the rim.  

Last year he started out shooting threes at 28% during the first 8 games and finished at over 38%.  I found this article that was basically trying to say that with the foul rule change Trae would become an inefficient and ineffective chucker.  It has not aged well.
https://hoopshabit.com/2021/11/04/atlanta-hawks-young-study-rules/

The data on Trae actually shows that he is in a class by himself, or with very few others historically.  He can't both be a hot dog that is only out to get on highlight reels, but also lead the league in assists on a team with the lowest turnover%.  

[NBASupes]

51 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

It's not just you.  That is actually a great summary of what bothers most people about Trae.  However, look at his actual numbers from last year, or even any of the prior 3 years, but last year in particular was efficient and had undeniable positive team outcomes.  Compare Trae last year to prime Iverson when AI averaged about 30 points but was 30% 3p, 41% 2p, 5 assists, and 4 turnovers.  Trae was 28 points on 38% 3p, 51% 2p, 9.7 assists, 4 turnovers with 90% FT.  He is one of the most efficient volume scorers in the paint with his floaters and drives.  His playmaking stats in terms of the offense he creates for his team is at an elite level compared with the rest of the league.  We had the lowest turnover percentage in the league.  

Our trouble last year was more when Trae was off the court.  One reason we started to play better as a team is we improved the bench unit playing Bogi, Delon, Gallo, and Okongwu.  

People call Trae's logo 3's bad shots, but I think it's an emotional argument.  He has I think the best fg% from that range of anyone who takes the long range 3's with regularity.  My main reason for supporting the long range 3's is the amount of court space it gives statistically the best playmaker in the league to operate.  He makes enough of them to draw his defender further out and then he will often pass them by the time he gets to the 3 point line.  Now he has a ton of space to assess if he should pass to an open shooter, throw a lob, hit a floater, or drive to the rim.  

Last year he started out shooting threes at 28% during the first 8 games and finished at over 38%.  I found this article that was basically trying to say that with the foul rule change Trae would become an inefficient and ineffective chucker.  It has not aged well.
https://hoopshabit.com/2021/11/04/atlanta-hawks-young-study-rules/

The data on Trae actually shows that he is in a class by himself, or with very few others historically.  He can't both be a hot dog that is only out to get on highlight reels, but also lead the league in assists on a team with the lowest turnover%.  

I strongly believe his point is valid and I hate comparing AI to Trae because the era was completely different. We should be comparing AI efficiency in comparison to the league and guards at that time. It's unfair to say look at efficiency. The zone was literally introduced in the prime of his and others like him careers and the personnel wasn't built to play within those changes to much later. 

Iverson played much more in control than Trae did. Trae is wild, plays way too much me ball, messes up the offensive flow, and doesn't let the game come to him on too many occasions. That said, I would be doing a disservice if we don't talk about Trae generally elite PnR game while is critical in today's NBA for half court offense. 

I think we don't fully think out our comparisons with Trae which is people can sideeye our fanbase as Homer's when in reality, we may know the stats but not know why people have the comments they do on Trae. There is a reason why many think Morant is clearly better than Trae even if the stats don't agree is because Morant has a much better eye test game and it's not just because he's far more exciting either.

[MarylandHawk]

1 hour ago, Jdawgflow said:

I love Trae as well but agree with you I have been disappointed in how much he is forcing things to “get his” when everyone else (especially John and Dre) have been playing so well.  

I know he is doing great with assists and his shots are going to start falling more but I have played enough over the years to have a good idea what those other guys are thinking about Trae with his hero ball right now.  There have to be some eye rolls when he is forcing shots.

I also agree with Diesel that Trae is going to shoot better and will be an Allstar.  And there will be games where we need Trae to go off.  
 

My hope is Trae does a little less looking for his shot and little more looking to feed the hot hand(s) when he is not the hot player provided others are doing well (which they have so far).  
 

But I also fully recognize the need for Trae to take over sometimes like in the playoffs two years ago in that Milwaukee game to give us a shot to win.  I do feel that need will be few and far between now though with DJ and an improved John and Dre.

Ok, now y’all can fire away at StonedDogs and me.  Can I have my blind fold first?  And gum please, no smoking here.

People have to get used to the idea that Trae is the shooting guard on this team. He needs to shoot and shoot a lot.  To me it is his reluctance to shoot that is causing some issues. He is so use to having to create his shot or a shot for others. With Murray in the line up and the offensive plays set up, he is getting the ball off of curls or in a position to shoot but is hesitating.  Then he comes back and tries make up for hesitating and then shooting too quickly. This is an adjustment for everybody on this team. I have zero doubts about Trae’s game and loves the way he plays. I am sure his teammates do too. 

[bleachkit]

Trae can have ugly games shooting wise, I think that is always going to the case because he's a small guy and his repertoire comprises of tough shots.

[Final_quest]

12 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I strongly believe his point is valid and I hate comparing AI to Trae because the era was completely different. We should be comparing AI efficiency in comparison to the league and guards at that time. It's unfair to say look at efficiency. The zone was literally introduced in the prime of his and others like him careers and the personnel wasn't built to play within those changes to much later. 

Iverson played much more in control than Trae did. Trae is wild, plays way too much me ball, messes up the offensive flow, and doesn't let the game come to him on too many occasions. That said, I would be doing a disservice if we don't talk about Trae generally elite PnR game while is critical in today's NBA for half court offense. 

I think we don't fully think out our comparisons with Trae which is people can sideeye our fanbase as Homer's when in reality, we may know the stats but not know why people have the comments they do on Trae. There is a reason why many think Morant is clearly better than Trae even if the stats don't agree is because Morant has a much better eye test game and it's not just because he's far more exciting either.

I do think there is validity to his criticisms, but living in the real world even the best players have flaws.  Mainly putting it in perspective.  

You can say he disrupts the flow and he forces things, but throw out Iverson and his efficiency and playmaking is still elite.  When Trae is on the court the plus minus always goes up.  He also showed he could be a star in the playoffs.  

Much of the critique on Trae right now is due to poor shooting to start the season.  It could be a trend.  He has shot poorly to start other seasons, too.  

[MarylandHawk]

5 hours ago, StonedDogs said:

I may get hate or be called a hater but I am disappointed in Trae game. Still forces up shots to get his numbers, still shoots low % threes, still doesn't let the offense come to him. It's like he's always looking for the homerun/youtube highlight play. He wants to shimmy and shake his chills so bad. I love how Murray plays though. It's just night and day. He seems more team oriented 

Alright Skip Bayless show your self.  If you are disappointed with the way Trae plays, you have to have some deep seeded old school way you see basketball and if a player doesn’t fit that mold you can’t get over it.  Trae Is NOT selfish. He literally leads the league in assists with DJ on the squad. He shimmies and put on a show because this is entertainment and he understands that element of the game too. He plays to the crowd not for his own selfish reasons but because he knows you need a strong fan base to go deep in the playoffs. It is weird to me me how people pop up out of no where just to hate on a part of the game he struggles with. Trae is carving out a path for us to win our first ever championship and this is what you choose to focus on. Sorry, you asked for the flames.  Remember Murray joined the team Trae les to the ECF not the other way around. I love Murray’s game too but we don’t need Trae to be Murray. We need Trae to be Trae. 

[MarylandHawk]

33 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I strongly believe his point is valid and I hate comparing AI to Trae because the era was completely different. We should be comparing AI efficiency in comparison to the league and guards at that time. It's unfair to say look at efficiency. The zone was literally introduced in the prime of his and others like him careers and the personnel wasn't built to play within those changes to much later. 

Iverson played much more in control than Trae did. Trae is wild, plays way too much me ball, messes up the offensive flow, and doesn't let the game come to him on too many occasions. That said, I would be doing a disservice if we don't talk about Trae generally elite PnR game while is critical in today's NBA for half court offense. 

I think we don't fully think out our comparisons with Trae which is people can sideeye our fanbase as Homer's when in reality, we may know the stats but not know why people have the comments they do on Trae. There is a reason why many think Morant is clearly better than Trae even if the stats don't agree is because Morant has a much better eye test game and it's not just because he's far more exciting either.

What??  Are you saying AI is flat out more efficient than Trae and Ja is flat out better? I must be in bizzaro world. I can’t let these side shots at Trae survive. The conversation needs to shift to something else. 

[StonedDogs]

7 minutes ago, MarylandHawk said:

Alright Skip Bayless show your self.  If you are disappointed with the way Trae plays, you have to have some deep seeded old school way you see basketball and if a player doesn’t fit that mold you can’t get over it.  Trae Is NOT selfish. He literally leads the league in assists with DJ on the squad. He shimmies and put on a show because this is entertainment and he understands that element of the game too. He plays to the crowd not for his own selfish reasons but because he knows you need a strong fan base to go deep in the playoffs. It is weird to me me how people pop up out of no where just to hate on a part of the game he struggles with. Trae is carving out a path for us to win our first ever championship and this is what you choose to focus on. Sorry, you asked for the flames.  Remember Murray joined the team Trae les to the ECF not the other way around. I love Murray’s game too but we don’t need Trae to be Murray. We need Trae to be Trae. 

Hey bud I'm just calling what I see with my eyes.You say I'm old school but I like Morants game a lot. I like Darius Garlands game a lot. You used the selfish word with Trae not me. 

I dont mind the shimmy, all I was saying was don't rush to get to the shimmy. Let it come with the flow of the game. It will come with a little more patience in my opinion. 

You have to let that ECF appearance go bud. The East is a gauntlet NOW with defensive powerhouses. 

I am not asking for Trae to be Murray, I'm asking for Trae to have another year of maturity. Hunter knows what a championship feels like. It wasn't the NBA but still has champion in his blood. Use him, feed him. Collins is fully healthy with a chip on his shoulder. Feed him. Murray is a creator and generator. Trae doesn't need to be Trae old and do EVERYTHING. He can literally chill more, preserve his energy and get easier buckets. 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

I strongly believe his point is valid and I hate comparing AI to Trae because the era was completely different.....

I think we don't fully think out our comparisons with Trae ......

 IIRC wasn't it you that started the Trae Iverson comparisons last season?

1 hour ago, MarylandHawk said:

What??  Are you saying AI is flat out more efficient than Trae and Ja is flat out better? I must be in bizzaro world. I can’t let these side shots at Trae survive. The conversation needs to shift to something else. 

Only because he's trying to make it convenient to match his narrative.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, MarylandHawk said:

What??  Are you saying AI is flat out more efficient than Trae and Ja is flat out better? I must be in bizzaro world. I can’t let these side shots at Trae survive. The conversation needs to shift to something else. 

This is not what I said dude. Wtf! Don't try to play me. I wrote exactly what I stated. No where did I say Ja is better than Trae or AI is more efficient than Trae. 

1 hour ago, StonedDogs said:

Hey bud I'm just calling what I see with my eyes.You say I'm old school but I like Morants game a lot. I like Darius Garlands game a lot. You used the selfish word with Trae not me. 

I dont mind the shimmy, all I was saying was don't rush to get to the shimmy. Let it come with the flow of the game. It will come with a little more patience in my opinion. 

You have to let that ECF appearance go bud. The East is a gauntlet NOW with defensive powerhouses. 

I am not asking for Trae to be Murray, I'm asking for Trae to have another year of maturity. Hunter knows what a championship feels like. It wasn't the NBA but still has champion in his blood. Use him, feed him. Collins is fully healthy with a chip on his shoulder. Feed him. Murray is a creator and generator. Trae doesn't need to be Trae old and do EVERYTHING. He can literally chill more, preserve his energy and get easier buckets. 

Your post is good. His post is why most of the NBA community don't take Hawk fans seriously. We have too many homers

[marco102]

24 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

This is not what I said dude. Wtf! Don't try to play me. I wrote exactly what I stated. No where did I say Ja is better than Trae or AI is more efficient than Trae. 

Your post is good. His post is why most of the NBA community don't take Hawk fans seriously. We have too many homers

Don't get why you are always talking about what most NBA fans think of the Hawks fans. 

Like literally you post here because we have some of the more intelligent basketball related conversations than other sites which means most NBA fans are casuals and their opinions are what ESPN tells them to think.

@StonedDogs has a point about the shot selection, but it's too small of a sample size to act like Trae's just out there chucking.  He's trying to get his rhythm with a new dynamic and  new role for himself.  Trae is far from selfish. If he was, he wouldn't be leading to the league in assists.  Trae creates more advantage points for other players than any player in the league.  He does that by taking crazy shots from time to time and keeping his defender guessing. We have to take that wildness because the wildness is what makes him great even though it can be frustrating from time to time.

Trae was top 5, probably closer to 1, in guard in efficiency last year with his volume of shots. 

What you (stonedogs) not going to do is call him inefficient because he has not been inefficient since his first year.

sidenote:  Can we as a fan base just appreciate the good players we have on our team and not pit them against each other? I pray that Trae and Dejounte doesn't turn into Capela and OO.  Seems silly to me not to want 48 minutes of center play, but there is always someone wanting to trade the other because of reasons.

Edited October 23, 2022 by marco102

[JayBirdHawk]

7 minutes ago, marco102 said:

 

@StonedDogs has a point about the shot selection, but it's too small of a sample size to act like Trae's just out there chucking.  He's trying to get his rhythm with a new dynamic and  new role for himself.  Trae is far from selfish. If he was, he wouldn't be leading to the league in assists.  Trae creates more advantage points for other players than any player in the league.  He does that by taking crazy shots from time to time and keeping his defender guessing.

Well said - shot selection, time on shot clock, rhythm shots or not all key factors.

1. Playing off ball is a work in progress

2. Playing with the bench lineup of The Holidaze, JJ and OO - Work in progress. Trae doesn't have the timing or comfort level with OO and JJ that he does with CC and JC - give it time. Trae has to do a better job of organizing that unit.