Official Game Thread: Hawks at Bucks (7 PM EST Tip)

[warcore]

4 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

So you definitely want hero ball to continue...interesting to say the least!

Your reading comprehension is.....

 

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Has nothing to do with Heather they are contested or not. For example...A fast break long three is not optimizing your option whether itis contested or not

No one is arguing indiscriminately for more 3's.  They all have qualifications around the types of 3's they want to see.  If you think differently, quote the post(s) and we do a deeper dig on that particular poster's position.  I am confident there won't be a single one that does not discriminate.

[JeffS17]

Trae played really well outside of shooting and some shot selection issues.  I would not point to this as a game he "is back" or anything like that, though.  If we're celebrating a 5/14 shooting night, what does that say about our star player?

IMO, he needs to spend time in the gym getting hundreds of floaters reps in -- I don't know what happened to that shot but it used to be automatic, to the point if he got into the lane I knew it was a floater bucket or a lob bucket, and now I have no faith we're scoring even when he gets deep in the lane.  And he needs to chill out on the step back threes, cannot remember the last time he made one.  He almost always missed on self-created threes in general unless it's just a pull up where the defender is sagging (like the ones he made last night). 

Anyways, great floor game last night, limited turnovers, but still not good shooting.  I want to see him logging 6/11, or 8/15 type nights with 10+assists more often.  His #1 skill by far is his vision and court awareness in addition to his quickness which breaks down defenses and gets other guys open looks.  The very encouraging thing that we've seen so far is when Trae has been doubled this year, the team is doing a really good job moving the ball quickly to take advantage of the brief 4v3 scenarios.

[Peoriabird]

15 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Quin is still telling guys to keep taking 3s.   I still say that Trae needs to take one step back, and shoot the 30+ foot 3

 

This is for @AHF if you put no parameters on when a player should shoot these types of shots then to me they are indiscriminate meaning there is no play in Quinn's playback designing this type of shot. This mean Trae himself is deciding to take these shot and there doesn't appear to be a rhyme or reason as to when he takes them.

 

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

This is for @AHF if you put no parameters on when a player should shoot these types of shots then to me they are indiscriminate meaning there is no play in Quinn's playback designing this type of shot. This mean Trae himself is deciding to take these shot and there doesn't appear to be a rhyme or reason as to when he takes them.

 

Let's do a deeper dig on this.

@TheNorthCydeRises - Please clarify this post.

Quote

Quin is still telling guys to keep taking 3s.   I still say that Trae needs to take one step back, and shoot the 30+ foot 3

Peo understands this to mean that you advocate Trae taking 3pt shots indiscriminately or at least taking 30+ foot 3pt shots indiscriminately. 

I read it to mean hat you believe the 30+ foot shots are specifically a good shot for Trae because he takes them in rhythm and typically with significantly less defensive pressure than other 3pt attempts.  I have seen you specifically tie the 30+ foot attempts in the past to Trae's shooting % on that type of shot and note that the extra spacing allows him to take the shot in rhythm and so think you are only talking about these types of attempts. 

But perhaps I am reading too much in when I say you don't want him taking any and all 30+ foot attempts, and you in fact believe all 30+ foot attempts for Trae are good things regardless of whether he is covered or not, regardless of if Quin tells him to run a certain play on that possession, etc.... (i.e., perhaps you actually indiscriminately support more 30+ foot shots rather than only a particular subset of them).  

[thecampster]

I'm going to split a thread off for this so we can keep the Quin strategy in focus.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Fully agree.  But I will also say I think we are already seeing some of that.  

Trae is taking the fewest shots this year since his rookie season.   (Small sample size caveat to all of this.)  He took 4.5 more shots per game earlier in his career.  And if you look on  a per minute basis, he is taking the fewest shots of his entire career including his rookie season.  So I think you are seeing a deliberate effort to spread the ball around more.  

Trae and DM have been brutal to start the year offensively.  Both have to get better and I agree with you that when other people are having success you need to lean into that and use it to open up easier shots for your more established struggling scorers.  

I didn't like it when Kobe played hero ball in LA so I'm sure not going to like it when Trae does it here.  That doesn't mean that I don't want to ever see him just go get a bucket because that absolutely has to happen sometimes.  But options a, b and c on any given possession need to be either called plays, functions of the normal system, or opportunistically taking advantage of a breakdown in the defense.  Beating your man one-on-one is not a sustainable high volume strategy.

I think it's a big step.   I am glad you noted it.

Trae has always had to be the man. He has always had to be the guy who took the shot.   I think Quin noticed that and took some of the pressure off of Trae to be the man.   Snyder/Brey run Motion offense at it's highest level.   That's a Budlike Level where anybody can end up being the leading scorer.   Last night, we had 8 in double figures... that's almost the pinnacle of how I believe we will play.   If Trae can fight his mandate to be the man and embrace this offense, we will be very hard to beat and will live out @NBASupes goal of finishing first in the East. 

It was also great to see DJ playing his game.   To me, DJ shouldn't be on the three point line that much.   He was a 35% 3pt shooter when we got him.  His game is in the midrange.   He murders opposing teams there.   I was glad to see him edit his shots and do what he knows how to do.   I say keep it up and if by chance, your 3pt% does rise, with the rising percentage, you can take more shots but don't force yourself to shoot shots outside your comfort zone. 

[Peoriabird]

16 minutes ago, AHF said:

Let's do a deeper dig on this.

@TheNorthCydeRises - Please clarify this post.

Peo understands this to mean that you advocate Trae taking 3pt shots indiscriminately or at least taking 30+ foot 3pt shots indiscriminately. 

I read it to mean hat you believe the 30+ foot shots are specifically a good shot for Trae because he takes them in rhythm and typically with significantly less defensive pressure than other 3pt attempts.  I have seen you specifically tie the 30+ foot attempts in the past to Trae's shooting % on that type of shot and note that the extra spacing allows him to take the shot in rhythm and so think you are only talking about these types of attempts. 

But perhaps I am reading too much in when I say you don't want him taking any and all 30+ foot attempts, and you in fact believe all 30+ foot attempts for Trae are good things regardless of whether he is covered or not, regardless of if Quin tells him to run a certain play on that possession, etc.... (i.e., perhaps you actually indiscriminately support more 30+ foot shots rather than only a particular subset of them).  

He should run the offense which is his primary job as point guard. I repeat, he had been told by 2 different coaches to stop taking that shot but he continue to do so. I doubt Quinn is encouraging him to take them.

[Peoriabird]

By the way he shot 33% 30-34 feet last year which is not a good shooting percentage for any shot.

[terrell]

14 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

If JJ goes from 10th man bench warmer . . . to close out player on a playoff team in just one season, just put him into the Hall of Fame right now.

Yeah,  It’s going to be a beautiful thing if Quin can turn JJ and Dre into the starting forwards that this team has been looking for...

[AHF]

14 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

He should run the offense which is his primary job as point guard. I repeat, he had been told by 2 different coaches to stop taking that shot but he continue to do so. I doubt Quinn is encouraging him to take them.

Who are those coaches?  I don't recall ever seeing a report that he had been asked to stop taking them.  

LP actively encouraged them by including a "4 point line" in practices to encourage shots from a farther distance to improve spacing for the offense.

[macdaddy]

I sure hope our front office and coach are more on the same page than Nate/Travis/Landry apparently were.  

[Peoriabird]

48 minutes ago, AHF said:

Who are those coaches?  I don't recall ever seeing a report that he had been asked to stop taking them.  

LP actively encouraged them by including a "4 point line" in practices to encourage shots from a farther distance to improve spacing for the offense.

Trae stop taking those logo 3's for a reason

[Peoriabird]

50 minutes ago, AHF said:

Who are those coaches?  I don't recall ever seeing a report that he had been asked to stop taking them.  

LP actively encouraged them by including a "4 point line" in practices to encourage shots from a farther distance to improve spacing for the offense.

Let's stop this circular argument and commit to an opinion. Do you Trae should take more 30 foot 3's or fewer?

[AHF]

23 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Trae stop taking those logo 3's for a reason

So do you have any names for me or not?  I don't recall a season in which he didn't take them.

19 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Let's stop this circular argument and commit to an opinion. Do you Trae should take more 30 foot 3's or fewer?

I'm not a big fan of them.  I am more open now than I was earlier in his career to them given how I've seen others take the shot and convert it at a similar or lower rate in very good offenses leading to believe that smarter minds than me see some value in it and among people who take that shot he is among the very best (arguably is the best given a multi-year timeframe).  But I'm not clamoring for them as I feel there is value in running your offense and grinding people down for better opportunities.  I'm absolutely more a fan of them for spacing than for pure scoring production.

My only reason for engaging on it is that I thought your post was strawmanning the positions that other Squawkers have made and invited you to reframe the way you were characterizing their thoughts.  When you held onto the idea that people wanted to see more 3's for Trae and specifically more 30+ foot attempts indiscriminately I have kept trying to explain why I think it is absolutely not indiscriminate.  But, for example, my view on that is not going to be same as everyone calling for more Trae 3's even if I believe they are discriminating in their view rather than indiscriminate.  

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

So do you have any names for me or not?  I don't recall a season in which he didn't take them.

I'm not a big fan of them.  I am more open now than I was earlier in his career to them given how I've seen others take the shot and convert it at a similar or lower rate in very good offenses leading to believe that smarter minds than me see some value in it and among people who take that shot he is among the very best (arguably is the best given a multi-year timeframe).  But I'm not clamoring for them as I feel there is value in running your offense and grinding people down for better opportunities.  I'm absolutely more a fan of them for spacing than for pure 

My only reason for engaging on it is that I thought your post was strawmanning the positions that other Squawkers have made and invited you to reframe the way you were characterizing their thoughts.  When you held onto the idea that people wanted to see more 3's for Trae and specifically more 30+ foot attempts indiscriminately I have kept trying to explain why I think it is absolutely not indiscriminate.  But, for example, my view on that is not going to be same as everyone calling for more Trae 3's even if I believe they are discriminating in their view rather than indiscriminate.  

What discriminations have seen documented?  All I see is shoot more long 3's. What do you see? This is where the term "Shoot it Trae offense" originated when during the game a select few posters would repeatedly type Shoot the ball even though Trae would be 1-10 from the field.

[AHF]

24 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

What discriminations have seen documented?  All I see is shoot more long 3's. What do you see? This is where the term "Shoot it Trae offense" originated when during the game a select few posters would repeatedly type Shoot the ball even though Trae would be 1-10 from the field.

Please re-read my post.  If you have trouble comprehending any of it, please identify the sections that I may have written without good clarity.  I've already spelled this out.

But let's revisit the idea that Trae has refused the order from his coach to stop taking the 30 foot shot because that is a big deal if it happened.  Please share the evidence for this.  My opinion of Trae will absolutely drop if he was told to take no more of those shots and continued to do so anyway.  I've never seen any indication that a coach told him to stop taking those but apparently  you have since you said that 2 coaches already told him that.

[kg01]

Starting to think AH and peo are the same person.  Who's with me? 

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Please re-read my post.  If you have trouble comprehending any of it, please identify the sections that I may have written without good clarity.  I've already spelled this out.

But let's revisit the idea that Trae has refused the order from his coach to stop taking the 30 foot shot because that is a big deal if it happened.  Please share the evidence for this.  My opinion of Trae will absolutely drop if he was told to take no more of those shots and continued to do so anyway.  I've never seen any indication that a coach told him to stop taking those but apparently  you have since you said that 2 coaches already told him that.

I'm not preview to and private conversation but LP 3rd year, the logo 3's all but went away. Under nate, the team went from shooting 40 plus 3's per night to around 30 per night with essentially the same personnel. Trae use to average shooting over 10 per night. He rarely shoot 10 any given night. Coincidence?

[AHF]

23 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

I'm not preview to and private conversation but LP 3rd year, the logo 3's all but went away. Under nate, the team went from shooting 40 plus 3's per night to around 30 per night with essentially the same personnel. Trae use to average shooting over 10 per night. He rarely shoot 10 any given night. Coincidence?

Where are you getting your data?  That Trae stopped taking logo 3's in 2020-21 is not consistent with my recollection so I want to see the numbers.

I am definitely not seeing enough here to think that (a) Trae was told to never shoot them again and (b) that he refused to do so.  Even if your data is accurate, it seems like the ask was for him to take fewer of them and far from refuse he has done what the coach asked.