Official Game Thread: Kings at Hawks

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, kg01 said:

Braaah.  Nah daddy, that ain't it.

ya you are… come here real quick..

 

  

  

Edited December 30, 2023 by Spud2nique

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Feel free to bash opinions.  You do that with facts and arguments.  Don’t bash people.

To me, +\- needs a substantial sample size and is not a stat to use without context.  It applies equally well to players at all levels of the game not just high end and role players.

I don’t throw out stats on anyone.  I do try to not look at any single stat as a be-all, end-all and think that stats combined with observations about what is happening on the floor is the ideal.  If you only go by the eye test or only go by a certain stat, you are missing important information, imo.

I do.

I threw them out with JC, Smoove, Jabari Parker, Russell Westbrook, and half of the low IQ players of the Wizards when I had season tickets and I throw them out with impactful players or possession-by-possession players that have way more value to the scouting and coaching eye than the general fan. Examples include Dre, Collison, Al Horford, Bill Russell, etc. At times, advanced metrics mean a lot to me like for Delon and Caruso. 

Even though advanced metrics hate guys like Kobe, A.I. T-Mac, I throw them out to a degree with those players. Those are exceptional players where their surrounding personnel didn't adjust quite yet to the modern era. 

It just honestly depends. I look at everything, including every metric I've been exposed to. 

There are guys like Millsap who I really like but sometimes their metrics are better than they actually are due to the supporting cast. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by NBASupes

[bleachkit]

Damn, Knicks got Anunoby.

[Spud2nique]

Hey Landry, sit tight you’re doin great.

 

 

Knocks got a lot better. Dang it. Never woulda thought this a minute ago.. ugh  

 

Hey Landry, are you awake?  

My boy OG, ugh I can’t root for him on the Knicks, Raptors is one thing but nah. This stinks.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, SalvorMallow said:

You been missing games this year bro? You think I have to cherry pick film to show DJ getting burned on the perimeter? He's an absolute sieve who over-gambles and loses focus, especially off-ball. Even on-ball though, his point of attack defense has been atrocious. Both PGs and SGs walk right past him to the rim.

He's looking bad because his responsibility is mainly off-ball and players that's a mismatch for him as an SG. Last year, he mainly defended 1s. 

[Spud2nique]

 

LANDRY BLOWS! One of the guys that would have been great was OG.. 

[terrell]

6 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Trae needs to go to Phoenix because the offensive scheme is ass and they can protect him on offense with KD who's superior to Trae and Beal is a better scorer when healthy. 

Trae in Atlanta always gets exposed in the 4th quarter. Always. He's not a #1 option and never will be

Atlanta runs a real offensive scheme with Quin. I'll rather DJ play PG for us as a starter. We just need a legit #1 option scorer and we need a legit big. I don't know how we get that big but bigs are generally easy to get if you are willing to overpay. I wish there was a way we could get Paolo Banchero

Yeah Trae late in games is usually a disaster when the D tightens up.. Thats a huge problem.. His size will always be a detriment.. Ive said it from the beginning..

Its either some wild step back , a floater or a lob that gets blocked.. 

Watching SGA close out the Nuggets in Denver like a star player supposed to do last night had me sad.....smh

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by terrell

[terrell]

5 hours ago, dalamchops said:

he does regardless of the score, he wasted 2 huge possession w/ a stepback 3 and a long bomb when kings went from down 2 to up 2

Yeah but it gets real bad when we have a big lead and momentum..

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, terrell said:

Yeah but it gets real bad when we have a big lead and momentum..

As soon as he does that stupid shit with KD. KD would be like, mfer, chill! Give me the damn ball and Trae will be playmaker Trae for the rest of the game. 

[JeffS17]

19 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

 

LANDRY BLOWS! One of the guys that would have been great was OG.. 

interesting deal, looking forward to seeing the picks

[Final_quest]

1 minute ago, JeffS17 said:

interesting deal, looking forward to seeing the picks

Just a 2nd rounder.  So basically they swapped players straight up.

[AHF]

17 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I do.

I threw them out with JC, Smoove, Jabari Parker, Russell Westbrook, and half of the low IQ players of the Wizards when I had season tickets and I throw them out with impactful players or possession-by-possession players that have way more value to the scouting and coaching eye than the general fan. Examples include Dre, Collison, Al Horford, Bill Russell, etc. At times, advanced metrics mean a lot to me like for Delon and Caruso. 

Even though advanced metrics hate guys like Kobe, A.I. T-Mac, I throw them out to a degree with those players. Those are exceptional players where their surrounding personnel didn't adjust quite yet to the modern era. 

It just honestly depends. I look at everything, including every metric I've been exposed to. 

There are guys like Millsap who I really like but sometimes their metrics are better than they actually are due to the supporting cast. 

The advanced metrics hate T-Mac, AI and Kobe?  I’m hoping our players get hated that way.

From the stacked 1996 class:

Kobe is #1 in win shares, #1 in BPM, #1 in VORP.

AI is #4 in WS (behind only Kobe, Ray Allen and Steve Nash), #2 in BPM, and #3 in VORP.

TMac is #3 in his class in WS (behind HOFers Tim Duncan and Chauncey Billups), #2 in BPM (behind Duncan), #2 in VORP (behind Duncan).

The advanced metrics say these guys are all superstars.  
 

Hunter is #20 in his draft class in WS, #39 in BPM, and dead last in the entire draft class in VORP.  This is a false comparison to use those guys as evidence that metrics are meaningless.  Kobe, AI and T-Mac’s advanced metrics actually show the opposite.

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

As soon as he does that stupid shit with KD. KD would be like, mfer, chill! Give me the damn ball and Trae will be playmaker Trae for the rest of the game. 

Trae would definitely benefit from having a true go to option on the team so he didn’t feel the need to force things.  He would excel in playmaking mode and catch and shoot opportunities created by someone like KD.  Don’t think we will ever see them together, though.

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

The advanced metrics hate T-Mac, AI and Kobe?  I’m hoping our players get hated that way.

From the stacked 1996 class:

Kobe is #1 in win shares, #1 in BPM, #1 in VORP.

AI is #4 in WS (behind only Kobe, Ray Allen and Steve Nash), #2 in BPM, and #3 in VORP.

TMac is #3 in his class in WS (behind HOFers Tim Duncan and Chauncey Billups), #2 in BPM (behind Duncan), #2 in VORP (behind Duncan).

The advanced metrics say these guys are all superstars.  
 

Hunter is #20 in his draft class in WS, #39 in BPM, and dead last in the entire draft class in VORP.  This is a false comparison to use those guys as evidence that metrics are meaningless.  Kobe, AI and T-Mac’s advanced metrics actually show the opposite.

I am talking in comparison to other all-time greats. 

And Dre draft class is horrendous, you really believe those metrics? Dre's game is not metrics-friendly. He not about stocks at all. His game is modern. You gotta know what this league is from a coaching or scouting perspective to know why Dre is paid what he's paid and why he's useful. That said, injuries aren't speaking positively about Dre. 

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Trae would definitely benefit from having a true go to option on the team so he didn’t feel the need to force things.  He would excel in playmaking mode and catch and shoot opportunities created by someone like KD.  Don’t think we will ever see them together, though.

I pray we do. For the betterment of the Atlanta Hawks franchise. I look forward to cheering for Trae, Beal, and KD. 

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Just a 2nd rounder.  So basically they swapped players straight up.

What options do you have? He didn't want to resign and he didn't like most of teams trying to trade for him. 

[NBASupes]

Exclusive: KD talking to Trae in the 4th quarter after Trae heaved a 35 footer with 20 seconds on the shot clock 

[NBASupes]

Trae would be so much better if he was on a squad with players like KD. 

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I am talking in comparison to other all-time greats. 

 

Kobe is #19 in career win shares, #13 in career VORP, etc.  Very fair his career.  (This WS puts him just above Bill Russell, KD and Hakeem in WS).

AI was a super inefficient scorer so he deservedly suffers by comparisons to all-time greats but still not out of the realm with all of these.  For example, #39 in career VORP (just above Nash, Kawhi, Moses, etc.).  T-Mac is #33 by the same Metric which I’d say is a generous rating for his career (just above Giannis, Nique and others).

Again, you can make the case that some metrics underrate some of these guys but others clearly don’t.  Not a good comparison with Hunter  who is horrific under every metric that I’ve ever seen.

[Final_quest]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

Kobe is #19 in career win shares, #13 in career VORP, etc.  Very fair his career.  (This WS puts him just above Bill Russell, KD and Hakeem in WS).

AI was a super inefficient scorer so he deservedly suffers by comparisons to all-time greats but still not out of the realm with all of these.  For example, #39 in career VORP (just above Nash, Kawhi, Moses, etc.).  T-Mac is #33 by the same Metric which I’d say is a generous rating for his career (just above Giannis, Nique and others).

Again, you can make the case that some metrics underrate some of these guys but others clearly don’t.  Not a good comparison with Hunter  who is horrific under every metric that I’ve ever seen.

There’s no data to put Hunter in a good light.  It’s platitudes plus, “the real ones know.”

[NBASupes]

15 minutes ago, AHF said:

Kobe is #19 in career win shares, #13 in career VORP, etc.  Very fair his career.  (This WS puts him just above Bill Russell, KD and Hakeem in WS).

AI was a super inefficient scorer so he deservedly suffers by comparisons to all-time greats but still not out of the realm with all of these.  For example, #39 in career VORP (just above Nash, Kawhi, Moses, etc.).  T-Mac is #33 by the same Metric which I’d say is a generous rating for his career (just above Giannis, Nique and others).

Again, you can make the case that some metrics underrate some of these guys but others clearly don’t.  Not a good comparison with Hunter  who is horrific under every metric that I’ve ever seen.

Kobe is someone who has been penalized by the introduction of zone defense during the middle of his era. Even though he adjusted much quicker than his peers, his peers didn't and if he played in today's NBA with the average player fully adjusted to zone defenses, he would be much better on the average NBA team compared to his era. This impacts Kobe's metrics a ton as well as anyone in his era. Look at T-Mac metrics in his PRIME before and after the introduction of zone defense. 

I wasn't comparing them to Dre. Why are you hung up on that part?