Official Game Thread: Thunder "at" Hawks

[terrell]

4 hours ago, TheTruth said:

Still trying to get over that we were up 135-120…15 points…with just 3:21 left in the game, yet it came down to the last shot.

Boy do we need some defenders in the worst way.

Speaking of defense....

Trent earned some more min

We need to throw him on Haliburton Fri tbh

Murray POA defense has been underwhelming

[SalvorMallow]

14 minutes ago, terrell said:

Speaking of defense....

Trent earned some more min

We need to throw him on Haliburton Fri tbh

Murray POA defense has been underwhelming

Speaking of defense... Trae made so many defensive plays last night I was super impressed. I feel like he is still trending up on that side of the ball. 

[Bonzaii58]

48 minutes ago, SalvorMallow said:

Speaking of defense... Trae made so many defensive plays last night I was super impressed. I feel like he is still trending up on that side of the ball. 

Agreed. That ball strip from Chet during transition was a thing of beauty. Even though he got away with a foul . I’ll take the effort 

[Spud2nique]

6 hours ago, kg01 said:

OKC needs some beef tho.

You hear ? Only guy in America whose New Year’s resolution is to get fatter  

Zion can be a ..(. Of fat  

[TheNorthCydeRises]

9 hours ago, macdaddy said:

We do for sure but we also need some clutch genes.  Here's our offense from that point

 

MISS Bey 3PT Jump Shot

MISS Murray Tip Layup Shot

Johnson 10' Floating Jump Shot (28 PTS) (Young 11 AST)

Johnson Bad Pass Turnover (P1.T12)

MISS Murray 25' 3PT Jump Shot

HAWKS Turnover: Shot Clock (T#13)

MISS Murray 3' Driving Floating Jump Shot

MISS Bogdanovic 26' 3PT Jump Shot

 

 

This is also what happens when a team actively tries to take the ball out of Trae's hands, and when you don't have a legit post option to pass the ball to.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

9 hours ago, kg01 said:

Nah, that was just his normal time to come out.  I'd say that was more of a welcome coincidence than anything.

 

Looks like you are correct.

 

[JeffS17]

41 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Looks like you are correct.

 

Where do you grab these lineup visuals?  Love these charts

[dalamchops]

last minute collapses has everything to do with late game planning/execution. won't matter who we add if quin don't clean that shit up.

[SalvorMallow]

21 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Where do you grab these lineup visuals?  Love these charts

https://popcornmachine.net/

[SalvorMallow]

28 minutes ago, dalamchops said:

last minute collapses has everything to do with late game planning/execution. won't matter who we add if quin don't clean that shit up.

Quinn can clean up the game planning, but the players gotta clean up the execution.

The coach shouldn't have to gameplan to stop a 3 minute long OKC layup line. I highly doubt the scheme was "let SGA get right to the rim 5 seconds into the shot clock after every miss".

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=712&GameID=0022300467&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Gilgeous-Alexander 2' Running Finger Roll Layup (33 PTS)

 

I would have personally preferred Forrest on the floor at this stage of the game instead of Bogi 

 

Watch the last play...Trent Forrest (who had an overall great game) fell asleep and and let Joe get a wide open 3 off. Maybe he thought the team was going to foul on the inbounds?

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=722&GameID=0022300467&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=MISS Joe 3PT Jump Shot

 

Tons of breakdowns like this in the last 3 min.

[JeffS17]

16 minutes ago, SalvorMallow said:

The coach shouldn't have to gameplan to stop a 3 minute long OKC layup line. I highly doubt the scheme was "let SGA get right to the rim 5 seconds into the shot clock after every miss".

Yeah, we literally just stopped playing like the game was over.  It was horrendous to watch.  It would be better to just hard foul him every possession than what we did

[terrell]

21 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Yeah, we literally just stopped playing like the game was over.  It was horrendous to watch.  It would be better to just hard foul him every possession than what we did

 

 

 

 

 

NBA Hoops Online

 

@NBABoards

 

"Snyder blew an unprecedented number of 10+ leads in his tenure with the Jazz. He cannot adapt to changes from the other team."

 

Interesting comment

[Diesel]

11 hours ago, SalvorMallow said:

Quinn can clean up the game planning, but the players gotta clean up the execution.

The coach shouldn't have to gameplan to stop a 3 minute long OKC layup line. I highly doubt the scheme was "let SGA get right to the rim 5 seconds into the shot clock after every miss".

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=712&GameID=0022300467&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Gilgeous-Alexander 2' Running Finger Roll Layup (33 PTS)

 

I would have personally preferred Forrest on the floor at this stage of the game instead of Bogi 

 

Watch the last play...Trent Forrest (who had an overall great game) fell asleep and and let Joe get a wide open 3 off. Maybe he thought the team was going to foul on the inbounds?

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=722&GameID=0022300467&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=MISS Joe 3PT Jump Shot

 

Tons of breakdowns like this in the last 3 min.

While I agree with you on the defensive breakdown.

Coach Snyder has to put in an offense that can get the ball into the halfcourt set comfortably.   An Extension of Jordan saying "You Reach, I teach"  there has to be a response to the other team pressing and blitzing.  It seems that we have no offensive answer for that except to panic.  Panicked offense doesn't score.  Because even if our defense breaks down and allows SGA an easier bucket, if he's just trading buckets, then it's moot and the other team will become more desperate.  

It does not make sense to dominate a team for 3.75 quarters and for 1/4 of the quarter, they are able stop us and score on us at will. 

Givem something to execute coach.

 

[SalvorMallow]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

While I agree with you on the defensive breakdown.

Coach Snyder has to put in an offense that can get the ball into the halfcourt set comfortably.   An Extension of Jordan saying "You Reach, I teach"  there has to be a response to the other team pressing and blitzing.  It seems that we have no offensive answer for that except to panic.  Panicked offense doesn't score.  Because even if our defense breaks down and allows SGA an easier bucket, if he's just trading buckets, then it's moot and the other team will become more desperate.  

It does not make sense to dominate a team for 3.75 quarters and for 1/4 of the quarter, they are able stop us and score on us at will. 

Givem something to execute coach.

 

How much do you need to score when ur up 16 with 3:05 mins to go? Obviously it'd be nice to keep getting buckets, but we gave up 17 points in 2:38 of game time. That's the equivalent of around 306 points if you extrapolate that across 48 mins. 

 

That, to me, is more of a problem than the offense (which admittedly was tragic as well, we only scored 4 points in that stretch) . Hold them to their season average pts/100 and we comfortably blow them out by double digits even with our anemic scoring. 

 

Relevant quote from AJC article:

 

Quote

So far this season, the Hawks average 16.3 opponent fast-break points, the third most in the NBA behind the Trail Blazers and Mavericks. But per Cleaning the Glass, those transition points don’t come off of turnovers, despite opponents averaging 17 points off of the average 13.7 Hawks miscues per game.

 

Instead, opponents have taken advantage of the Hawks’ inability to get back on defense after failing to grab the rebound or after a made basket. Per Cleaning the Glass, the Hawks sit in the 29th percentile in frequency with nearly 35% of their live-ball rebounds leading to transition play. On average, the Hawks give up 126.4 points per 100 transition plays, which puts them in the 24th percentile, according to Cleaning the Glass.

 

The Hawks have looked to address transition defense over the years, but their inability to get back continues to hurt them this season. That issue gets exacerbated when opponents adjust in the second half after the Hawks have built double-digit le ads.

 

[AHF]

42 minutes ago, SalvorMallow said:

How much do you need to score when ur up 16 with 3:05 mins to go? Obviously it'd be nice to keep getting buckets, but we gave up 17 points in 2:38 of game time. That's the equivalent of around 306 points if you extrapolate that across 48 mins. 

 

That, to me, is more of a problem than the offense (which admittedly was tragic as well, we only scored 4 points in that stretch) . Hold them to their season average pts/100 and we comfortably blow them out by double digits even with our anemic scoring. 

 

Relevant quote from AJC article:

 

 

I will note that if we score it is much easier to effectively defend from the other team inbounding than if we miss and they are running back against us before our defense is set.  So good offense would improve the defense even if it wouldn't solve it.

[SalvorMallow]

6 minutes ago, AHF said:

I will note that if we score it is much easier to effectively defend from the other team inbounding than if we miss and they are running back against us before our defense is set.  So good offense would improve the defense even if it wouldn't solve it.

In principle, sure, but JJ scored twice during that stretch, and both times the Thunder came back and scored within 7 seconds. I'm not buying that the offense was the real problem.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, SalvorMallow said:

How much do you need to score when ur up 16 with 3:05 mins to go? Obviously it'd be nice to keep getting buckets, but we gave up 17 points in 2:38 of game time. That's the equivalent of around 306 points if you extrapolate that across 48 mins. 

Like I said before, I don't disagree with the need of defense.   I agree we need that.   However, if we have been scoring the whole game... nonstop... at 60% at times...  isn't an easier fix to just keep doing what we been doing?

Tonight we play Indiana.   They play nonstop offense also.   They are a really bad defensive team, but it doesn't matter... their strength is that they will continue to try to score. 

Sometimes, you have to come to the realization that I don't have to have a great defensive team.  I just need a team where I can get 1 or 2 stops when I need them. 

 

[Diesel]

41 minutes ago, SalvorMallow said:

In principle, sure, but JJ scored twice during that stretch, and both times the Thunder came back and scored within 7 seconds. I'm not buying that the offense was the real problem.

Those were like our only 2 scores of that part of the game.   If we're trading baskets... we win.   If they have stopped us from scoring and they score, we may lose.   There's a psychology in trading baskets.   A team like OKC can find SGA and he score easily 100% of the time.   However, if they just end up trading baskets with us... They will abandon his 100% scoring to try a less successful path.  That's the beauty of playing with a lead.   If you have a lead and continue scoring, you force the other team's hand.   Next thing you know they are taking long threes.  i.e. lower percentage shots.  Yes, we have to defend the perimeter.. and we can't get into a shooting war with them.  But if we just keep scoring, it solves a lot of the problems we see.

 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, SalvorMallow said:

In principle, sure, but JJ scored twice during that stretch, and both times the Thunder came back and scored within 7 seconds. I'm not buying that the offense was the real problem.

It is more than "in principle."  I think it is a clearly established fact that teams give up fewer points after they have scored.  Any given possession can buck that trend but we are talking about trends and big pictures.  

For a team to make a big comeback they have to net out to positive points possession after possession.  If you score, you reduce or eliminate that net differential and over time you will absolutely play better defense if you are working with a set defense than you will when the other team is grabbing a board or generating a turnover and coming back at you on the fly.  

I'm not making the case our defense doesn't need to improve.  It is obvious that it does.  But there is more than one way up the hill to combat the big negative differential down the stretch and better offensive sets from us can be a very significant improvement to protect against those big comebacks in multiple ways.

[SalvorMallow]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Like I said before, I don't disagree with the need of defense.   I agree we need that.   However, if we have been scoring the whole game... nonstop... at 60% at times...  isn't an easier fix to just keep doing what we been doing?

Tonight we play Indiana.   They play nonstop offense also.   They are a really bad defensive team, but it doesn't matter... their strength is that they will continue to try to score. 

Sometimes, you have to come to the realization that I don't have to have a great defensive team.  I just need a team where I can get 1 or 2 stops when I need them. 

 

 

44 minutes ago, AHF said:

It is more than "in principle."  I think it is a clearly established fact that teams give up fewer points after they have scored.  Any given possession can buck that trend but we are talking about trends and big pictures.  

For a team to make a big comeback they have to net out to positive points possession after possession.  If you score, you reduce or eliminate that net differential and over time you will absolutely play better defense if you are working with a set defense than you will when the other team is grabbing a board or generating a turnover and coming back at you on the fly.  

I'm not making the case our defense doesn't need to improve.  It is obvious that it does.  But there is more than one way up the hill to combat the big negative differential down the stretch and better offensive sets from us can be a very significant improvement to protect against those big comebacks in multiple ways.

So the assertion you both are making is that we can never have a stretch where we score 4 points in 2 minutes or we just lose the game? It's not like we had a 5 or 6 minute drought (which we have done many times this season), it was literally 2.5 minutes and we actually scored a couple times.

We scored 141 points in the game for crying out loud! At some point you have to think it's easier to get back on defense and get a stop or at least make them use more than 5 seconds of the shot-clock than it is having to score on every single possession to maintain your lead. 

If you want to talk about adjustments we could have made to improve our chances:

• We should've ran OO instead of Capella because they were playing ultra small and running hard. Capella wasn't fast enough to get up the floor to defend that style.
• We should have pulled Bey for Forrest to get more defense on the floor.
• I also saw several times when JJ would play matador defense because he had 5 fouls and didn't want to foul out. Coach should've told him to keep playing defense or sat him for someone who would.