Horford for Blake Griffin - ESPN Trade Idea

[TheNorthCydeRises]

5 hours ago, Lurker said:

I'll say what I said elsewhere here:

This team lost it's way in close games last season when apparently now golden boy Demarre Carroll was here. They did before the playoffs too, they may have closed out both of the first two series but did so in horrible fashion. Both could have ended in 5 with a better job done at closing out games.

They lost it vs Boston before the 2015 All Star Game.

They may have been blown out three times, but every single last game other than that in January was close and they didn't make the big play needed to close it out or get over the hump. Unless those problems change and fast, odds are very good that this team is swept away in the first round with two of the games being blowouts due to the team quitting.

 

Hogwash.

Unless the Hawks finish 7th or 8th in the East, and face the Cavs, no one is sweeping the Hawks in Round 1.

Every other team in the East is exactly like us.  Even Toronto's recent streak should be side eyed a bit, seeing that they've been feasting on bad or hurt teams.

People keep trying to bury this team, yet, we're in 3rd place again.

The Hawks could very well be a 47 to 48 win team, and still be in the East Finals.

Let this thing play out, instead of trying to bury this team in midseason.

[Plainview1981]

6 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

Hawks lose because they can't score NOT because they can't defend. How many points did San Antonio's #1 defense do against GS and Cleveland, again??? Try watching the games every now and then before commenting. 

They gave up 111 and 107 points to the Knicks in back to back games.  They gave up 107 points to Charlotte and 105 to Chicago.  108 points to the Bucks. 105 points to Denver... 111 points to Indiana and 105 points to Miami.

They did all of that in Jan. And you want to tell me they lost because they couldn't score points? This team averages 101 PPG.

Those low scoring games against the Suns and Kings were just flat out lousy games.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Hotlanta1981

[NBASupes]

30 minutes ago, Hotlanta1981 said:

They gave up 111 and 107 points to the Knicks in back to back games.  They gave up 107 points to Charlotte and 105 to Chicago.  108 points to the Bucks. 105 points to Denver... 111 points to Indiana and 105 points to Miami.

They did all of that in Jan. And you want to tell me they lost because they couldn't score points? This team averages 101 PPG.

Those low scoring games against the Suns and Kings were just flat out lousy games.

We are inconsistent but we are an extremely good defensive team in part due to Horford. 

[Hawkmoor]

8 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Hogwash.

Unless the Hawks finish 7th or 8th in the East, and face the Cavs, no one is sweeping the Hawks in Round 1.

Every other team in the East is exactly like us.  Even Toronto's recent streak should be side eyed a bit, seeing that they've been feasting on bad or hurt teams.

People keep trying to bury this team, yet, we're in 3rd place again.

The Hawks could very well be a 47 to 48 win team, and still be in the East Finals.

Let this thing play out, instead of trying to bury this team in midseason.

The Hawks can get into the playoffs as a 2 seed, and they STILL aint beating the Cavaliers..................... They got SWEPT by a Cavalier team last year that didnt have a head coach..... with Lue running the show now............it would by  4 straight destructions the Cavs put on the Hawks................

 

Edited February 4, 2016 by Hawkmoor

[Admin]

8 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Hogwash.

Unless the Hawks finish 7th or 8th in the East, and face the Cavs, no one is sweeping the Hawks in Round 1.

Every other team in the East is exactly like us.  Even Toronto's recent streak should be side eyed a bit, seeing that they've been feasting on bad or hurt teams.

People keep trying to bury this team, yet, we're in 3rd place again.

The Hawks could very well be a 47 to 48 win team, and still be in the East Finals.

Let this thing play out, instead of trying to bury this team in midseason.

The Hawks can get into the playoffs as a 2 seed, and they STILL aint beating the Cavaliers..................... They got SWEPT by a Cavalier team last year that didnt have a head coach..... with Lue running the show now............it would by  4 straight destructions the Cavs put on the Hawks................

 

We lost that series badly because Love was out, JR and Shump had insane shooting games, and almost all of our important players were injured. Not saying we would have beaten them but that series should have been a lot closer.

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[Admin]

6 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

Hawks lose because they can't score NOT because they can't defend. How many points did San Antonio's #1 defense do against GS and Cleveland, again??? Try watching the games every now and then before commenting. 

They gave up 111 and 107 points to the Knicks in back to back games.  They gave up 107 points to Charlotte and 105 to Chicago.  108 points to the Bucks. 105 points to Denver... 111 points to Indiana and 105 points to Miami.

They did all of that in Jan. And you want to tell me they lost because they couldn't score points? This team averages 101 PPG.

Those low scoring games against the Suns and Kings were just flat out lousy games.

I can't agree more. I can't buy into advanced stats that say we are among the elite defensive teams when we are routinely giving up so many points. When we were s top notch defense for real we are giving up in the low to mid 90's. That's been the standard for a championship caliber defense for as long as I can recall.

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[Dejay]

I'd be beyond shocked if the Hawks were swept in the first round by anyone other than the Cavs. Besides them, the only other team with a better record is Toronto; and judging from how things ended with that bunch last year, I'll withhold lumping them into the title contending mix with Cleveland, San Antonio, OKC, and Golden State until proven otherwise. 

And I don't know what metrics they're using but the Hawks haven't played elite-level defense.  When teams like the Knicks are hanging over 100 on you in back-to-backs and Miami looks like the Warriors on a bender, that's saying something. 

Something is amiss on this team and we all know it. It isn't just missing Demarre or Korver not hitting his shots. There's something else. Finding a way to properly correct it and move forward is the $64,000 question though... 

[Atlantaholic]

10 hours ago, Hotlanta1981 said:

They gave up 111 and 107 points to the Knicks in back to back games.  They gave up 107 points to Charlotte and 105 to Chicago.  108 points to the Bucks. 105 points to Denver... 111 points to Indiana and 105 points to Miami.

They did all of that in Jan. And you want to tell me they lost because they couldn't score points? This team averages 101 PPG.

Those low scoring games against the Suns and Kings were just flat out lousy games.

We are fifth in defensive rating dude, Fifth. Better than last season btw. We are 16th in offensive rating. But ok, go ahead and  pick out random games instead of looking at the entire sample size to prove your "point".  Regardless, do you understand that 101 points per game isn't very many when you are playing at the 9th fastest pace in the league? You can't just look at net points as proving effectiveness, anyone who watched the Charlotte, Milwaukee (OT game btw) or Indiana (both offenses were doing nothing all game until Indiana pulled away very late in the fourth and we put in our subs) would understand that it was our offense that couldn't do squat, same with the Sacramento, and Phoenix games and LAC games where anything other than an absolutely terrible performance on offense would have gotten us a sweep. The Chicago game where we allowed 105 points was a blowout win where we allowed something like 29 points in the fourth quarter after putting in our third string the last 5 minutes. Only really game we struggled flat out on defense were the Knick games, or maybe the Miami game though I didn't watch it so I won't comment on it. 

Like someone else posted: we are number 1 in defense rating in January, meaning, there is no team in the NBA that has been giving up less points than us when adjusting to our pace per 100 possessions. Meaning: We are the best defensive team statistically this month. During the same month we dropped from something like 6th in offensive rating to 16th. So yea, CLEARLY, as clear as a 50 foot neon billboard, the problem has been our offense. 

[Atlantaholic]

2 hours ago, Dolfan23 said:

I can't agree more. I can't buy into advanced stats that say we are among the elite defensive teams when we are routinely giving up so many points. When we were s top notch defense for real we are giving up in the low to mid 90's. That's been the standard for a championship caliber defense for as long as I can recall.

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These "advanced" metrics are just adjusting for pace by calculating the amount of points given up per 100 possessions. There is nothing advanced about it. Looking at net points scored or given up tells you nothing. The Warriors give up a bunch of points, routinely over 100, but they are a fantastic defensive team. Giving up 100 points means nothing if you are playing at a fast pace. When you play at a fast pace and score around 85 points as we have, then THAT'S the issue. We held the Clippers to their lowest point total in the entire season, and lost. Held Sacramento who is one of the best offensive teams in the league to one of their lowest totals, and also lost. Miami looking like Golden State is a ridiculous statement, they scored 105 points in a game where they had well over 100 possessions: 81 FGA, 26 free throws (around 13 possession) and 18 turnovers... we scored 87 points. The defensive performance that game was at around average for an NBA team (probs above average) while the offensive performance was putrid, under 1 point per possession for the Hawks.  If we had been just at around league average on offense we would have had two-three losses max in January. 

[Gray Mule]

Here's a little ditty that I learned as a child (Which was a few years ago) and, to me

it describes our Hawks to a T !  See if you can see our Hawks in this:

 

There was a little girl

who had a little curl

right in the middle of her forehead.

When she was good

she was very, very good

and when she was bad she was horrid!

 

Some would have you believe that we are always the horrid Hawks, never able to do anything.  Yet,

some of us refuse to give up.  We watch when we are good and just know that they can do that again!!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

The Hawks can get into the playoffs as a 2 seed, and they STILL aint beating the Cavaliers..................... They got SWEPT by a Cavalier team last year that didnt have a head coach..... with Lue running the show now............it would by  4 straight destructions the Cavs put on the Hawks................

 

The Cavs have a top 5 all time player, a PF who before he joined the Cavs was putting up Hall of Fame numbers, and a high scoring former #1 overall pick at PG.

We're not SUPPOSED to beat the Cavs.

So should we just cancel operations for the rest of the season?  You say tge Hawks will get blown out 2 games in a playoff series because they will quit.  But the only people I see "quitting" is yourself and a few other people.

NOW ( slamming hand on my desk ) .. if you wanna crown them, then crown their AZZ.

But the Cavs are who we THOUGHT they were.  But Bud's not letting them off the hook.

[Plainview1981]

3 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

We are fifth in defensive rating dude, Fifth. Better than last season btw. We are 16th in offensive rating. But ok, go ahead and  pick out random games instead of looking at the entire sample size to prove your "point".  Regardless, do you understand that 101 points per game isn't very many when you are playing at the 9th fastest pace in the league? You can't just look at net points as proving effectiveness, anyone who watched the Charlotte, Milwaukee (OT game btw) or Indiana (both offenses were doing nothing all game until Indiana pulled away very late in the fourth and we put in our subs) would understand that it was our offense that couldn't do squat, same with the Sacramento, and Phoenix games and LAC games where anything other than an absolutely terrible performance on offense would have gotten us a sweep. The Chicago game where we allowed 105 points was a blowout win where we allowed something like 29 points in the fourth quarter after putting in our third string the last 5 minutes. Only really game we struggled flat out on defense were the Knick games, or maybe the Miami game though I didn't watch it so I won't comment on it. 

Like someone else posted: we are number 1 in defense rating in January, meaning, there is no team in the NBA that has been giving up less points than us when adjusting to our pace per 100 possessions. Meaning: We are the best defensive team statistically this month. During the same month we dropped from something like 6th in offensive rating to 16th. So yea, CLEARLY, as clear as a 50 foot neon billboard, the problem has been our offense. 

Many teams are trying to play the same jack up 3's style now and so I don't really care about this pace argument.

There was nothing special about the defensive efforts against the Kings and Suns. The Suns threw garbage out there. 

Here was the Suns line up:

Archie Goodwin

Devin Booker

P.J. Tucker

Tyson Chandler

Alex Lin

They gave up nearly 100PPG to that team (on 40% 3pt shooting) and Goodwin had his way with this "top defensive team" when it mattered.

There was NOTHING impressive about that game.

Indiana shot 48.7% from the field and 60% in 3's. 

Good defense. lol

[Plainview1981]

5 hours ago, Dolfan23 said:

I can't agree more. I can't buy into advanced stats that say we are among the elite defensive teams when we are routinely giving up so many points. When we were s top notch defense for real we are giving up in the low to mid 90's. That's been the standard for a championship caliber defense for as long as I can recall.

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lol. No kidding.

But I'm sure other teams are shaking in their shoes at the thought of going up against the Hawks "number one defense".

[AHF]

4 hours ago, Gray Mule said:

Here's a little ditty that I learned as a child (Which was a few years ago) and, to me

it describes our Hawks to a T !  See if you can see our Hawks in this:

 

There was a little girl

who had a little curl

right in the middle of her forehead.

When she was good

she was very, very good

and when she was bad she was horrid!

 

Some would have you believe that we are always the horrid Hawks, never able to do anything.  Yet,

some of us refuse to give up.  We watch when we are good and just know that they can do that again!!

Surprisingly, this somehow does not improve Horford's status as a tough guy.

[Admin]

2 hours ago, Dolfan23 said:

I can't agree more. I can't buy into advanced stats that say we are among the elite defensive teams when we are routinely giving up so many points. When we were s top notch defense for real we are giving up in the low to mid 90's. That's been the standard for a championship caliber defense for as long as I can recall.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

These "advanced" metrics are just adjusting for pace by calculating the amount of points given up per 100 possessions. There is nothing advanced about it. Looking at net points scored or given up tells you nothing. The Warriors give up a bunch of points, routinely over 100, but they are a fantastic defensive team. Giving up 100 points means nothing if you are playing at a fast pace. When you play at a fast pace and score around 85 points as we have, then THAT'S the issue. We held the Clippers to their lowest point total in the entire season, and lost. Held Sacramento who is one of the best offensive teams in the league to one of their lowest totals, and also lost. Miami looking like Golden State is a ridiculous statement, they scored 105 points in a game where they had well over 100 possessions: 81 FGA, 26 free throws (around 13 possession) and 18 turnovers... we scored 87 points. The defensive performance that game was at around average for an NBA team (probs above average) while the offensive performance was putrid, under 1 point per possession for the Hawks.  If we had been just at around league average on offense we would have had two-three losses max in January. 

I realize they not really "advanced" but that doesn't mean I think they're an accurate measure. You can't tell me that the Hawks are the type of legit top 5 defense that can routinely lock down on a team in the last couple minutes and win the game more often than not. We have limited protection at the rim, we are weak on the boards, and our guards allow a lot of penetration by their opposing player. You can't tell me that a a true top 5 defense would have all 3 of those weaknesses. That's why I think those "advanced" metrics like that are not a true measure to judge by.

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[Plainview1981]

10 minutes ago, Dolfan23 said:

I realize they not really "advanced" but that doesn't mean I think they're an accurate measure. You can't tell me that the Hawks are the type of legit top 5 defense that can routinely lock down on a team in the last couple minutes and win the game more often than not. We have limited protection at the rim, we are weak on the boards, and our guards allow a lot of penetration by their opposing player. You can't tell me that a a true top 5 defense would have all 3 of those weaknesses. That's why I think those "advanced" metrics like that are not a true measure to judge by.

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The funny thing is that even if the Hawks played good defense for what... 3 weeks... How does that justify keeping Horford?

It's sheer madness.

This is a team that has given up 70-75 points in a half a couple of times this season

Edited February 4, 2016 by Hotlanta1981

[Hawkmoor]

6 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The Cavs have a top 5 all time player, a PF who before he joined the Cavs was putting up Hall of Fame numbers, and a high scoring former #1 overall pick at PG.

We're not SUPPOSED to beat the Cavs.

So should we just cancel operations for the rest of the season?  You say tge Hawks will get blown out 2 games in a playoff series because they will quit.  But the only people I see "quitting" is yourself and a few other people.

NOW ( slamming hand on my desk ) .. if you wanna crown them, then crown their AZZ.

But the Cavs are who we THOUGHT they were.  But Bud's not letting them off the hook.

[Atlantaholic]

On 4/2/2016 at 4:28 PM, Dolfan23 said:

I realize they not really "advanced" but that doesn't mean I think they're an accurate measure. You can't tell me that the Hawks are the type of legit top 5 defense that can routinely lock down on a team in the last couple minutes and win the game more often than not. We have limited protection at the rim, we are weak on the boards, and our guards allow a lot of penetration by their opposing player. You can't tell me that a a true top 5 defense would have all 3 of those weaknesses. That's why I think those "advanced" metrics like that are not a true measure to judge by.

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Huh? Then why do we rank ninth in blocks if we don't have any rim protection. Why do we rank second in points scored of off turnovers, third in steals, tied for seventh in opponent FG%?

Good grief, it's like some of you don't watch any teams but the Hawks. OMG we gave up points three or four times in January, guess what, it happens to every team. Toronto just gave up 120 points to the Wolves, Boston is giving up 130(!) points tonight against the Clips. Picking out one or two games does not mean anything, this is an offensive league we are playing in right now, teams score over 100 points on a daily basis.

Facts are: we rank top ten in any single defensive category you can name, and fifth in points given up per 100 posessions... meanwhile we are 20th in three point shooting and 18th in points per 100 posessions. And you'll are telling me our problem is the defense? It's ridiculous. Obviously what this team needs is wing players that can make shots, it's as clear as day.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Atlantaholic

[Admin]

On 4/2/2016 at 4:28 PM, Dolfan23 said:

I realize they not really "advanced" but that doesn't mean I think they're an accurate measure. You can't tell me that the Hawks are the type of legit top 5 defense that can routinely lock down on a team in the last couple minutes and win the game more often than not. We have limited protection at the rim, we are weak on the boards, and our guards allow a lot of penetration by their opposing player. You can't tell me that a a true top 5 defense would have all 3 of those weaknesses. That's why I think those "advanced" metrics like that are not a true measure to judge by.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Huh? Then why do we rank ninth in blocks if we don't have any rim protection. Why do we rank second in points scored of off turnovers, third in steals, tied for seventh in opponent FG%?

Good grief, it's like some of you don't watch any teams but the Hawks. OMG we gave up points three or four times in January, guess what, it happens to every team. Toronto just gave up 120 points to the Wolves, Boston is giving up 130(!) points tonight against the Clips. Picking out one or two games does not mean anything, this is an offensive league we are playing in right now, teams score over 100 points on a daily basis.

Facts are: we rank top ten in any single defensive category you can name, and fifth in points given up per 100 posessions... meanwhile we are 20th in three point shooting and 18th in points per 100 posessions. And you'll are telling me our problem is the defense? It's ridiculous. Obviously what this team needs is wing players that can make shots, it's as clear as day.

I missed the part where I applauded our offense or said it didn't need major work.

If you can honestly say that you think this is a top defense who are capable of stopping the other team at a critical point more times than they fail then I'm not sure what to tell you.

Btw it's interesting that you ignore our biggest defensive weakness with our defensive rebounding rate being 27th. Perhaps giving up extra possessions to the offense isn't a part of defense for you.

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[EazyRoc]

9 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

Huh? Then why do we rank ninth in blocks if we don't have any rim protection. Why do we rank second in points scored of off turnovers, third in steals, tied for seventh in opponent FG%?

Good grief, it's like some of you don't watch any teams but the Hawks. OMG we gave up points three or four times in January, guess what, it happens to every team. Toronto just gave up 120 points to the Wolves, Boston is giving up 130(!) points tonight against the Clips. Picking out one or two games does not mean anything, this is an offensive league we are playing in right now, teams score over 100 points on a daily basis.

Facts are: we rank top ten in any single defensive category you can name, and fifth in points given up per 100 posessions... meanwhile we are 20th in three point shooting and 18th in points per 100 posessions. And you'll are telling me our problem is the defense? It's ridiculous. Obviously what this team needs is wing players that can make shots, it's as clear as day.

I wish we played like a top 5 defense in the playoffs when it matters. That's when we start to look like a top 30 defense