[Winter 2020] Woj Rumor: Drummmmmnd to ATL talks happening

[Eddielives]

3 minutes ago, Watchman said:

Adams has never cracked the 10 RPG level or 14 PPG.  That ain't 90% of Drummond.

 

Stats need context.  It's Adams's defensive presence that doesn't always show up as a clearly distinct number or stat.  This is the Dwight Howard fallacy.  He rebounds and puts up 15ppg so he must be amazing and help his team be a championship contender.  Not really.  Russell Westbrook averages has averaged a triple double and his team got punked out of the playoffs routinely.  Even the mighty Harden hasn't made it to the finals since Oklahoma City where he had Durant(great team player) with lesser "stats."  Horford wasn't necessarily a stat guy but the Hawks were much better with him....because he was smart and a good team player with attributes that couldn't necessarily be quantified.

[marco102]

I did not realize the third year of Dedmon's contract was $1 milllion guarenteed.  Sign me up for Dedmon if the Hawks are looking for an easy fix THIS year. 

Len has been producing well lately.  

Drummond intrigues me too if he's willing to opt in for next season.  We have a ton of cap space and his big contract helps reach the salary cap floor while rounding out the roster with solid vets wih the remaining cap space. I'm not willing to give up any of our young players for him (well they can have Jones and a couple of 2nd rounders).

I don't think anything is dire.  If the team continues the tough play the last few games, I don't see Travis panicking or ownership panicking. 

Just stay the course and make smart deals.

Edited January 5, 2020 by marco102

[AHF]

5 hours ago, thecampster said:

Len is an absolute bargain right now and is in his final year. Len will command at least 10 million next year on the free agent market and maybe as much as $15 million.  Think this through man.  Dedmom got $13 million a year and is a smidge less than Len.  

 

Bet proposal:  

If Len commands a salary of $12M or greater next season, you can pick my avatar for a month.

If his salary is less than $10M next season, I pick yours for a month.  
 

In between is a push.

@thecampster

[sturt]

2 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

Not sure what to make of this.

On one hand, I commend him for wanting to be on one team his whole career and trying to win with the Pistons.
He is saying all the things that fans will want to hear from him.

On the other hand, if he is a winner and not a quitter, I’m wondering how come he’s never addressed winning before? How come he’s never pushed the Pistons front office to make moves to get better. I’m just saying if winning is important to Drummond, you certainly can’t tell by his actions to want to play with better teammates.

Is he right for us? 

I'm persuaded he could be right for us.

 

I'm just not persuaded that he could be right for us now.

 

But/and if Travis decides to make a deal, that will strongly suggest that Travis wants those Bird rights all to himself this off-season so he's got the upper hand.

 

To me, that's what this all boils down to.

[Spud2nique]

12 minutes ago, sturt said:

I'm persuaded he could be right for us.

 

I'm just not persuaded that he could be right for us now.

 

But/and if Travis decides to make a deal, that will strongly suggest that Travis wants those Bird rights all to himself this off-season so he's got the upper hand.

 

To me, that's what this all boils down to.

We aren’t at the stage in our development to have him right now I agree. Having him is great and all. It elevates us to another level in the next couple of years making our immediate future brighter than the course suggests. However, conversely it takes away reps from Cam, Hunter, Bruno as some others. Do we want a bright immediate future or do we want to aim for 2021 and beyond?

Now, some may argue we can trade for Drummond, get a better shot at him in the offseason having traded for him and just go the Trae/Drummond big 2 and see who develops around that chunk of usage. That’s another route but I dunno I’m torn. 
 

Another thing is we trade for him, sign and trade flip him to another team this summer for other players. 
 

Too many ways this thing can go. It’s a tough one though for sure. Usually trades seem like no brainers to me at times, this one is bending my brain .

[Watchman]

3 hours ago, Eddielives said:

Stats need context.  It's Adams's defensive presence that doesn't always show up as a clearly distinct number or stat.  This is the Dwight Howard fallacy.  He rebounds and puts up 15ppg so he must be amazing and help his team be a championship contender.  Not really.  Russell Westbrook averages has averaged a triple double and his team got punked out of the playoffs routinely.  Even the mighty Harden hasn't made it to the finals since Oklahoma City where he had Durant(great team player) with lesser "stats."  Horford wasn't necessarily a stat guy but the Hawks were much better with him....because he was smart and a good team player with attributes that couldn't necessarily be quantified.

To each his own.  Rather than waste $25 million a year on a mediocre player like Adams, I'd rather just stick with what we've got.  

[JTB]

this will make some of you happy.....

 

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28425188/amid-trade-talks-andre-drummond-says-wants-finish-career-detroit

 

Amid trade talks, Andre Drummond says he wants to finish career in Detroit
 

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by JTB

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Bet proposal:  

If Len commands a salary of $12M or greater next season, you can pick my avatar for a month.

If his salary is less than $10M next season, I pick yours for a month.  
 

In between is a push.

@thecampster

Ridiculous bet. Too much can happen between now and then.

[gurpilo]

Well after all the talk and after Andre’s words I have clear that this trade is not going to happen.... in fact I doubt Hawks make a move till February and I doubt we add a good player before July. Anyway I still think Drummond is the best center we can add and I really hope we can add him in free agency. 
 

hopefully in 7 months with 2 new rookies and 5-6 good free agents this team can finally make the playoffs.

[Spud2nique]

50 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Ridiculous bet. Too much can happen between now and then.

AHF is dying to alter someone’s avatar  

[JTB]

17 minutes ago, gurpilo said:

Well after all the talk and after Andre’s words I have clear that this trade is not going to happen.... in fact I doubt Hawks make a move till February and I doubt we add a good player before July. Anyway I still think Drummond is the best center we can add and I really hope we can add him in free agency. 
 

hopefully in 7 months with 2 new rookies and 5-6 good free agents this team can finally make the playoffs.

Yup I’m with you...unfortunately for those of us who want to see Drummond here on a good deal it’s likely not to happen. I’ve already faced reality with it 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, Eddielives said:

Stats need context.  It's Adams's defensive presence that doesn't always show up as a clearly distinct number or stat.  This is the Dwight Howard fallacy.  He rebounds and puts up 15ppg so he must be amazing and help his team be a championship contender.  Not really.  Russell Westbrook averages has averaged a triple double and his team got punked out of the playoffs routinely.  Even the mighty Harden hasn't made it to the finals since Oklahoma City where he had Durant(great team player) with lesser "stats."  Horford wasn't necessarily a stat guy but the Hawks were much better with him....because he was smart and a good team player with attributes that couldn't necessarily be quantified.

 

Every great Hall of Fame caliber player is judged by stats that can be quantified, whether it be traditional stats or number of rings they have. You need stat guys to put up the numbers.  If your role playing "glue guys" can do intangible things to keep an opponent from scoring, or help accentuate the offense, then that's fantastic.  But a team goes nowhere with those main couple of guys that can put up numbers.

So let's look at Dwight in Atlanta in 2016 - 17

Raw numbers:  

• 13.5 ppg
• 12.7 rebs
• 1. 2 blks
• 63% FG
• 8.3 Win Shares ( #1 on team )
• .181 WS/48 ( #1 on team )
• Value over Replacement Player - 2.4 ( #2 on team )
• Player Impact Estimate - 15.1 ( #1 on the team and 28th in the league )

So even though his numbers were down from what he normally averaged for his career, he was still able to average a double-double with a high FG% and a Win Share value that borderline All-Stars normally achieve.  He and Millsap were the defensive anchors of that team and the main reason why they won 43 games that season.

And even though the Hawks were 6 - 2 without Dwight in the lineup, it doesn't mean that they would've been better without Dwight the entire season.  The year following his departure pretty much proved that to be the case.  Once the defensive anchors in Howard and Millsap were gone, the team lost 19 more games than the previous season.

[Sothron]

After his talk about being a Piston for life it makes me wonder if he's killed the trade by telling the Hawks in private he would opt out and leave rather than sign an extension. 

[Thomas]

1 hour ago, JTB said:

this will make some of you happy.....

 

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28425188/amid-trade-talks-andre-drummond-says-wants-finish-career-detroit

 

Amid trade talks, Andre Drummond says he wants to finish career in Detroit
 

 

Believe it is time for a polygraph test just about now

[Thomas]

18 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

AHF is dying to alter someone’s avatar  

"Your soul is mine" stuff right?

[Eddielives]

7 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Every great Hall of Fame caliber player is judged by stats that can be quantified, whether it be traditional stats or number of rings they have. You need stat guys to put up the numbers.  If your role playing "glue guys" can do intangible things to keep an opponent from scoring, or help accentuate the offense, then that's fantastic.  But a team goes nowhere with those main couple of guys that can put up numbers.

So let's look at Dwight in Atlanta in 2016 - 17

Raw numbers:  

• 13.5 ppg
• 12.7 rebs
• 1. 2 blks
• 63% FG
• 8.3 Win Shares ( #1 on team )
• .181 WS/48 ( #1 on team )
• Value over Replacement Player - 2.4 ( #2 on team )
• Player Impact Estimate - 15.1 ( #1 on the team and 28th in the league )

So even though his numbers were down from what he normally averaged for his career, he was still able to average a double-double with a high FG% and a Win Share value that borderline All-Stars normally achieve.  He and Millsap were the defensive anchors of that team and the main reason why they won 43 games that season.

And even though the Hawks were 6 - 2 without Dwight in the lineup, it doesn't mean that they would've been better without Dwight the entire season.  The year following his departure pretty much proved that to be the case.  Once the defensive anchors in Howard and Millsap were gone, the team lost 19 more games than the previous season.

Aaaaand he got punked by Marcin Gortat in the playoffs and was justly ridiculed for it.  A lot of good those stats did us when it mattered most.  Also, didn't we beat a Howard led Magic team with Jason Collins holding his own against Dwight as a huge reason? That's right.  I believe that happened too.  He was soft as Charmin.  Now, I'm not saying the same would happen with Drummond(I like him a bit more than Dwight especially the fact he's not a douchey soft punkass) but they fit similar profiles to me and don't fit in the modern NBA as integral parts of a championship team.  It's all about the context.  

Being good enough to qualify for the Hall of Fame and being part of winning a championship are two different standards.  Howard will probably be a Hall of Famer and deservedly so because it's about stats to a large degree. 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

Ridiculous bet. Too much can happen between now and then.

Says that Len will get a “minimum” of $10M next season and maybe $15M.  Offered a bet where he can’t lose if Len gets the “minimum” salary.  Calls bet ridiculous.

Not sure if “minimum” has a different definition in some other version of English.

[bleachkit]

55 minutes ago, Sothron said:

After his talk about being a Piston for life it makes me wonder if he's killed the trade by telling the Hawks in private he would opt out and leave rather than sign an extension. 

Probably. Having the worst record in the NBA does that.

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Says that Len will get a “minimum” of $10M next season and maybe $15M.  Offered a bet where he can’t lose if Len gets the “minimum” salary.  Calls bet ridiculous.

Not sure if “minimum” has a different definition in some other version of English.

I assume all the risk from injury or hometown discount

 

[Watchman]

1 hour ago, Eddielives said:

Aaaaand he got punked by Marcin Gortat in the playoffs and was justly ridiculed for it.  A lot of good those stats did us when it mattered most.  Also, didn't we beat a Howard led Magic team with Jason Collins holding his own against Dwight as a huge reason? That's right.  I believe that happened too.  He was soft as Charmin.  Now, I'm not saying the same would happen with Drummond(I like him a bit more than Dwight especially the fact he's not a douchey soft punkass) but they fit similar profiles to me and don't fit in the modern NBA as integral parts of a championship team.  It's all about the context.  

Being good enough to qualify for the Hall of Fame and being part of winning a championship are two different standards.  Howard will probably be a Hall of Famer and deservedly so because it's about stats to a large degree. 

If we don't pursue Drummond, fine, just don't waste $25 million a year on someone like Adams.  He's not worth half that much.