Let's Talk Trade Ideas!

[bleachkit]

6 minutes ago, AHF said:

But remember the other piece.  Dennis had to be gone to clear the path for Trae to get big minutes.   It isn't hard to see this become a disaster if we hold Dennis looking for a better deal and then Trae starts off with his disastrous first month or two of his rookie year.  

So based on what happened with Trae's development, I think you can make the case that it was the right call to move Dennis quickly.  Did TS get great value?  No.  He didn't.  But there was value in ensuring a clear path for Trae's development and what ultimately happened is he blossomed into what I would say is a young superstar so the regret doesn't run deep for me on this deal.

So we did Presti a solid, giving him the best back up guard in the NBA, and eating Carmelo's 25 mil which nobody wanted, just so Dennis wouldn't be giving Trae the cold shoulder during his rookie year. Come on, that is a laughable rationalization of an awful deal. 

Edited September 1, 2020 by bleachkit

[macdaddy]

It's a bad deal based on what Dennis has done this year though.  It didn't seem that bad at the time because i don't think there were a ton of suitors for Dennis.  I agree with you that in evaluation now you have to say it was bad.    But to be honest most trades are bad for one of the teams a year later.  

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

So we did Presti a solid, giving him the best back up guard in the NBA, and eating Carmelo's 25 mil which nobody wanted, just so Dennis wouldn't be giving Trae the cold shoulder during his rookie year. Come on, that is a laughable rationalization of an awful deal. 

First, Dennis was considered overpaid and an attitude problem at the time.  He was not a valued asset.  This is relevant because it informs the market for what trade offers we would have received.  If better offers were made and passed on, then that is a valid reason for criticism.  Completely.  I haven't seen reports of any, though, so I'm not going to hate on this too much.

Second, is there a scenario where you think keeping Dennis would have worked out and not had any risk of negatively impacting Trae's development?  I don't think so.  He had to go. 

So for me it becomes a matter of whether we got good value for Dennis based on his market value at the time.  From that end, I don't think he had much value but we also didn't get much value back.  Another GM probably could have improved this deal but we were never getting two unprotected firsts or something for Dennis at that point in time.  I think a lot of teams viewed him as an overpaid player.

[capstone21]

Dennis went to a place where he understood he would backup to the MVP point guard ... he got humbled ... if he stayed Trae would not have developed like he had ... if Trae did develop the way he did then Dennis would not have accepted a backup spot well.

[bleachkit]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

First, Dennis was considered overpaid and an attitude problem at the time.  He was not a valued asset.  This is relevant because it informs the market for what trade offers we would have received.  If better offers were made and passed on, then that is a valid reason for criticism.  Completely.  I haven't seen reports of any, though, so I'm not going to hate on this too much.

Second, is there a scenario where you think keeping Dennis would have worked out and not had any risk of negatively impacting Trae's development?  I don't think so.  He had to go. 

So for me it becomes a matter of whether we got good value for Dennis based on his market value at the time.  From that end, I don't think he had much value but we also didn't get much value back.  Another GM probably could have improved this deal but we were never getting two unprotected firsts or something for Dennis at that point in time.  I think a lot of teams viewed him as an overpaid player.

So why the heck did we eat Carmelo's 25 million? Now that is what you call a distressed asset. They were desperate to rid themselves of that contract. Get a solid 1st or no deal. Not a protected 1st that convey into 2 seconds. That's shit. 

[Peoriabird]

16 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

So we did Presti a solid, giving him the best back up guard in the NBA, and eating Carmelo's 25 mil which nobody wanted, just so Dennis wouldn't be giving Trae the cold shoulder during his rookie year. Come on, that is a laughable rationalization of an awful deal. 

You're not going to get anywhere with these guys man so give it up.  They already have in their minds that Vince was good for the team and Dennis was bad for the team even though the reverse happened in OKC and in Atlanta like I thought it would.  OKC wins with Dennis and Atlanta has been an embarrassment with Vince.  They will defend Schlenk and LP to the end just like they did with BUD. 

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

You're not going to get anywhere with these guys man so give it up.  They already have in their minds that Vince was good for the team and Dennis was bad for the team even though the reverse happened in OKC and in Atlanta like I thought it would.  OKC wins with Dennis and Atlanta has been an embarrassment with Vince.  They will defend Schlenk and LP to the end just like they did with BUD. 

What would you guys have done?

[bleachkit]

Would Dennis have been any less toxic than all the bitchy salary dump vets we gladly traded for? At least Dennis can play. And we were rewarded with the privilege of eating Melo's 25 mil. Guys like Ainge and other top GMs don't get rolled like this, sorry they just don't. 

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

What would you guys have done?

I made my opinion clear at the time.  I thought that we should have kept Dennis.

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, bleachkit said:

Would Dennis have been any less toxic than all the bitchy salary dump vets we gladly traded for? At least Dennis can play. And we were rewarded with the privilege of eating Melo's 25 mil. Guys like Ainge and other top GMs don't get rolled like this, sorry they just don't. 

I'm telling you man...I've been down this road with these guys many times and was shot down.

[bleachkit]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

What would you guys have done?

Not that deal. 

[AHF]

23 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Would Dennis have been any less toxic than all the bitchy salary dump vets we gladly traded for? At least Dennis can play. And we were rewarded with the privilege of eating Melo's 25 mil. Guys like Ainge and other top GMs don't get rolled like this, sorry they just don't. 

I think keeping Dennis would have been wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy...

 

 

aaaaayyyyyyyyyyy more problematic than taking on Melo, Jeremy Lin, Parsons, Crabbe, etc.  

And the biggest problem would have been that he would have been too good to simply bench and shove to the side when we decided that we wanted to feed minutes to Trae and the youngsters.  We could treat the other toxic contract vets we took as disposable commodities to focus on developement.

And Trae's development has been a home run success so anything that could put that in jeopardy is a big problem for me.  

You don't draft someone like Trae to let them fight it out with the 30th best PG in the league (or whatever position you would put Dennis in).  I cannot imagine Dennis pulling up to the gym in his gold car and accepting that he will be coming off the bench and playing second fiddle to a struggling rookie.  Even if they worked together, we were tanking at that point in time so the additional wins would have been a negative outcome.

Bear in mind as well that Dennis is having a career season this year - much better than any season he ever had with us and much better than his season last year.  He put up an ugly .515% TS% his last season with us and an equally ugly .508% TS% last season with OKC.  This year he is scoring efficiently at .575% TS% for the first time in his career.  Being humbled and taking on a supporting roll has actually been great for his development as well.  

[macdaddy]

32 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Not that deal. 

We owed Dennis $45 million over the next 3 years for backup PG production.  Everyone thought we'd have to send out a first round pick to get rid of him.  Instead we got one.  I'm not sure why this is such a big deal.  We saved money and got a pick.   It's easy to say i wouldn't have done that a year later.    The org didn't want Dennis and he didn't want to be here.  What sense does it make to keep him and unless you have knowledge that there was a better deal out there then it's just arm chair GMing.   I agree that it's not a great deal in hindsight but it's also probably the best we could have done. 

[marco102]

@bleachkit so the Capela trade was terrible?  Seemed like great value for what we gave up based on past performances.  I know he was injured, but by far it seems like we got great value.  

Also, Travis hasn't made trades to "win" them. He's been making trades to get more assets.  You guys act like the Hawks were draft pick and asset rich whenever Travis took over.  He made moves to get us those assets and clear our terrible cap sheet.   He's done a great job if you ask me. 

You are entitled to your opinion.  Does seem like a ton of hindsight because I don't think you were this vocal when the trade was made. 

[JayBirdHawk]

4 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

We owed Dennis $45 million over the next 3 years for backup PG production.  Everyone thought we'd have to send out a first round pick to get rid of him.  Instead we got one.  I'm not sure why this is such a big deal.  We saved money and got a pick.   It's easy to say i wouldn't have done that a year later.    The org didn't want Dennis and he didn't want to be here.  What sense does it make to keep him and unless you have knowledge that there was a better deal out there then it's just arm chair GMing.   I agree that it's not a great deal in hindsight but it's also probably the best we could have done. 

I think most forget this part. Teams were actually asking for an asset to take on Dennis after Bud the GM extended him.

Remember this?

Quote

 "I have to look individually what’s the best for me," Schröder said. "I will be 25 in September... I cannot be second to last in the Eastern Conference. 

 

Since we are 'hindsighting' these threads are a 'great' read:

 

 

 

 

[kg01]

First, I'm a huge Dennis fan.  I always will be, certainly after he was the only one that showed up vs CLE both times.

That said, the 'keep Dennis' stuff is revisionist.  The choice is keep Dennis or develop Trae.  IOW, the choice was easy.  The details of the deal were pretty irrelevant.  Looking back on it and going all, "We shudda got more!" is silly and fails to recognize the reality of the situation at that time.   Hindsight is 20/20.

[warcore]

All you DSers are failing to acknowledge that had we kept his longterm salary on the books, we would have never been able to take those 2 1sts with Allen Crabbe. One of those helped us move up to get Hunter, and the other landed us Capela. And it appears we are about to get another asset to take on a bad contract this offseason - wouldn't have that flexibility with DS on the roster. So that would make 3 firsts, plus the possible OKC first, and TS has obtained 4 picks secondary to the flexibility that trade gave us. 

So all you DSers would rather have DS, Trae and piles of dog shit versus what we have now? Remember, we don't have Chris Paul to put him in his place. 
 

[bleachkit]

56 minutes ago, marco102 said:

@bleachkit so the Capela trade was terrible?  Seemed like great value for what we gave up based on past performances.  I know he was injured, but by far it seems like we got great value.  

Also, Travis hasn't made trades to "win" them. He's been making trades to get more assets.  You guys act like the Hawks were draft pick and asset rich whenever Travis took over.  He made moves to get us those assets and clear our terrible cap sheet.   He's done a great job if you ask me. 

You are entitled to your opinion.  Does seem like a ton of hindsight because I don't think you were this vocal when the trade was made. 

The jury is still out on the Capela trade. I can tell you this though, his foot injury was more serious than initially reported when we traded for him. But if we get a healthy productive Capella, I like the deal.

Edited September 1, 2020 by bleachkit

[marco102]

43 minutes ago, warcore said:

All you DSers are failing to acknowledge that had we kept his longterm salary on the books, we would have never been able to take those 2 1sts with Allen Crabbe. One of those helped us move up to get Hunter, and the other landed us Capela. And it appears we are about to get another asset to take on a bad contract this offseason - wouldn't have that flexibility with DS on the roster. So that would make 3 firsts, plus the possible OKC first, and TS has obtained 4 picks secondary to the flexibility that trade gave us. 

So all you DSers would rather have DS, Trae and piles of dog shit versus what we have now? Remember, we don't have Chris Paul to put him in his place. 
 

I completely read DSers the wrong way. Not sure if that was intentional on your part.

[terrell]

51 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

The jury is still out on the Capela trade. I can tell you this though, his foot injury was more serious than initially reported when we traded for him. But if we get a healthy productive Capella, I like the deal.

Capela said Friday that his injured right heel feels "way, way better" and indicated that he believes he has fully healed, Chris Kirschner of The Athletic reports.