Backup PG

[Gray Mule]

Just been reading Kings posters.  They are saying, they have too many guards.

Yep.  I know.  I continue to beat a dead horse.  I wonder what the Hawks could add to our two draft picks in exchange for Tyrese Haliburton?  You all know that I wanted him in last year's draft.  I'm happy with our own pick, OO17, but I still want my man from last year's draft.

I've watched film on the players in this draft.  Plenty of guards.  A great defensive player or two.  A dead eye shooter from deep.  May even find that elusive 7 foot giant in round two.  

But, I'm thinking, if they have too many, we might relieve them of one! - - 

[sturt]

Gray, I'm up for it.

What do you propose?

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Gray Mule said:

Just been reading Kings posters.  They are saying, they have too many guards.

Yep.  I know.  I continue to beat a dead horse.  I wonder what the Hawks could add to our two draft picks in exchange for Tyrese Haliburton?  You all know that I wanted him in last year's draft.  I'm happy with our own pick, OO17, but I still want my man from last year's draft.

I've watched film on the players in this draft.  Plenty of guards.  A great defensive player or two.  A dead eye shooter from deep.  May even find that elusive 7 foot giant in round two.  

But, I'm thinking, if they have too many, we might relieve them of one! - - 

I'm going to step out on a limb and say that not one of those Kings posters complaining about having too many guards is pushing for the team to unload Haliburton.  My guess is that most Kings posters view him as a key part of the future.

[sturt]

On 7/17/2021 at 11:38 AM, sturt said:

Starting from the standard that says "acquire the player who is most capable of replicating what you get from the PG position when Trae Young is on the floor"... and... "it's a priority for the player to contribute in a big way immediately"... here are the legit candidates from my perspective:

Free agency

• Kevin Pangos (Zenit St. Petersburg)
• Derrick Rose (NYK)
• Patty Mills (SAS)

(Not included: Cory Joseph, who I see as more of a bus driver back-up, but who likely will be available after being cut on 8/1; Alex Caruso, who I feel too sure will be able to attract bigger money than we'll be able to offer.)

Trade

• Derrick White (SAS) ...somewhat of a reach because would require a third team--can't acquire him with cap space, so would have to trade Dunn+Bruno for a ~ $13m player, who we then could flip in a trade w/ SAS using trade exception

(Not included: I've had visions of converting KCP into a Lou Williams kind-of option, but have to be pragmatic and acknowledge that that's not at all likely. He might be capable, but I don't imagine that anyone in the front office wants to experiment right now.)

Draft

• Jared Butler (Baylor) ...not feeling very confident that he'll be available at #20--thinking that most who have had him on their boards in the 20s only had him there b/c of the health concern, which seems to be fading as a concern now

(Not included: Several... but of those who would seem most striking, Davion Mitchell might be at the top of that list, and though I was high on him initially, I've evolved to the conclusion that he's not developed well-enough as a PnR lead, and whoever our #2 is, he's going to need to hit the ground immediately, and be a fairly complete asset.)

 

Thoughts:

• I remain very conflicted about putting a rookie into such a key role for us, given the consequences to our anticipated assault on the promised land. So, I don't feel good about handing that to Butler. At least, not right away.

 

• At the same time, I don't feel good about handing the role to a Rose or Mills for just one year. Assuming Kirschner accurately reported his conversation with Schlenk, TS also appears to want to stop the revolving door in that slot of the depth chart. Also, where Mills is concerned, it bothers me that he's not going to get much of a break b/c of his Olympics participation.

 

• Trading for White is complicated, and too, it seems unrealistic to anticipate that about $50m of our payroll would be invested in two point guards beginning in 22-23. So, if you did go get him, you'd almost certainly be weighing trade offers next off-season anyhow.

 

• That leaves Pangos, who meets the eye test and is likely affordable, but are you really totally sure that he would make the transition from Europe so smoothly? Similar to Butler, it's easier to pencil him into the #3 PG, and let him force himself into the #2 than it is to just presume the best. But would he sign if he wasn't getting a commitment to the #2 slot? Don't think so.

 

Conclusion: There is no clear-cut best option. So, to become married to one is probably to be self-deceived.

It would matter in a big way what trade offers I get for the #20 pick, because there is definite merit in beginning to develop a cache of Europeans that can supplement the roster in the next few years as we anticipate getting late draft picks--much as SAS did so successfully for so long.

What's my ideal if I could assume the best within some realm of possibility? I can't even say that with any certainty, because while White is the surest thing in the list, he's also the most expensive, the most complicated to acquire, and too, he's had quite a few nagging injuries that have kept him off the court. And again, need more information on what trade offers for #20 would be.

Turning those thumb screws tighter, I think I have to come back to Derrick Rose and be content with the next surest high-impact option who is unfortunately only a short-term solution. And then, I have to either draft someone I intend to eventually supplant him... maybe Butler, or maybe I could land McBride in the 2nd round... or try to persuade Pangos to be a temporary #3 with the expectation that he takes over sooner or later.

But obviously, I'm perplexed how best to approach it.

New thought.

Say that the way this plays out...

- We don't get a PG in the draft... the ones that Schlenk really likes are gone before #20, and he resigns himself to focus on free agency

- Presser is called shortly after the opening bell, and the rumor is confirmed that we've signed Derrick Rose.

 

Question 1: What's the most we would be paying him that wouldn't get you upset?

... and the more interesting question to me...

Question 2: Assuming an acceptable salary, would you be okay with signing him to a 4 year contract (ie, that would take him through his age 36 season)?

Remember Chris Paul is 36. Kyle Lowry is 35.

If not four, three then?... two?

 

If Rose makes you too nervous -- while seemingly reinvigorated after a dark 5 years or so, he's only played 50 games in each of the last three years -- would you sign up for Patty Mills instead? Same questions... what's your upper limit before you curse, and what's the most number of years you'd feel comfortable committing to?

(I'll hold back answering my own questions temporarily in the interest of reading others'.)

 

[RandomFan]

Rose is gonna sign for at least $13M per season. Out of our price range for someone that will likely only play backup PG minutes. For that much money we would need a combo guard that could also get minutes next to Trae. 

[sturt]

Hollinger's BORD predictions certainly aren't anything that would threaten Nostradamus, but it's about as good as we get, at least until HoopsRumors puts out their predictions.

Pertinent to my comment above, here's the just-dropped verdict on PGs...

https://theathletic.com/2713807/2021/07/19/2021-nba-free-agency-point-guard-rankings-by-bord-chris-paul-kyle-lowry-top-a-deep-field/

 

 

Me, I'm not real sure that the Knicks are going to outbid anyone for Rose. There's every reason to believe they have bigger point guard fish to fry. I think Rose likely gets an offer from the Knicks, but it's essentially the same as he can get from another team or teams.

And I could see Rose putting a priority on whichever team he believes is better positioned to get him a ring.

 

[sillent]

Sharife Cooper!! Not a bad backup at all

[NBASupes]

Lou Williams is likely back as the backup. 

[sturt]

Cooper will get a two-way contract.

LouWill might be the #3.

Schlenk isn't one to not do what he says he's going to do. There will be a new #2 someway somehow.

 

[ATLHawks3]

9 minutes ago, sturt said:

Cooper will get a two-way contract.

LouWill might be the #3.

Schlenk isn't one to not do what he says he's going to do. There will be a new #2 someway somehow.

 

I’d sign him to the same deal we gave Bruno. I think he could be contributing by the All Star Break.

[sturt]

As Schlenk just said in his presser when asked something in this vein, we're in a different place as a team now... not in the player development emphasis any longer, but now in a "contending" phase. He said we should expect our draftees to be playing in College Park more so now.

And Cooper does have some serious things to work on.

http://www.tankathon.com/players/sharife-cooper

 

[RandomFan]

I really really hope we don't sign Sharife to a two way contract. We really need to give him a normal contract. Here is the thing, if his shot improves then he's a future starter in the league, we won't be able to afford his 2nd contract, and it would be big for us to be able to trade him for value in the last year of his contract or like JC now when he's a restricted free agent.

But if he doesn't improve his shot then having him finish out his rookie deal on a cheap normal contract isn't that big of a hindrance. In this scenario he's at worst a very playable #3 PG.  

[RandomFan]

We should be signing Cooper to a similar contract as this:

[niremetal]

17 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

We should be signing Cooper to a similar contract as this:

I'm not up on the rules for G-League for players under contract. Am I correct that:

1. If we have him under a Bruno-like regular NBA contract, that counts toward the 15-player max for the active roster, meaning that's one less slot to use on a vet free agent?
2. But that's not the case if we sign him to a two-way?
3. We get Bird (or early Bird) rights if we sign him to a regular contract, but not if we sign-him to a two-way?
4. If we sign him to a regular NBA contract, we still can send him to College Park full-time without restriction (again, aside from the fact that he counts against our active roster)?

Because here's the thing...fun as he is to watch, Sharife Cooper will almost certainly need at least a full year in College Park before he's playable in anything but garbage time in the NBA. Point guards who are 6'0 in shoes and can't shoot or defend are just not playable in the NBA anymore. If he's playing any remotely meaningful minutes, we're in trouble. I like the idea of locking him down for a couple years and getting Bird rights. We just gotta be prepared for the possibility that that reduces our flexibility to get a playable vet to be our #3 PG.

Although if we go my preferred route of having Bogi serve as the de facto #2 PG, problem solved

Edited July 30, 2021 by niremetal

[nathan2331]

We just played Brandon Goodwin 620 minutes this past season, and he can't shoot either (37.7% FG & 31.1 3P% this past season). Cooper as a 3rd guard is fine, he should get a proper contract. Even if he spends most of the year in the G-League, he can still occupy a limited role. Mays and Knight likely will be our two-way players anyways considering we haven't pursued any undrafted free agents.

[niremetal]

Maybe I'm wrong about his shot. Starting at 1:18...dang. Hopefully that translates to game action. Guess we'll find out in Summer League.

 

  

4 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

We just played Brandon Goodwin 620 minutes this past season, and he can't shoot either (37.7% FG & 31.1 3P% this past season). Cooper as a 3rd guard is fine, he should get a proper contract. Even if he spends most of the year in the G-League, he can still occupy a limited role. Mays and Knight likely will be our two-way players anyways considering we haven't pursued any undrafted free agents.

Fair point--but our expectations this next year are significantly higher than they were last year, which is why Goody won't be coming back as our 3rd PG. As others have said, LouWill--our 2nd PG last year--might end up as our #3 this year. And that's my point. If Sharife can't contribute yet, then spending a full-on roster spot is risky if we have title-run aspirations. But hopefully his jumper is more serviceable, in which case, sign the man.

Edited July 30, 2021 by niremetal

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Lou Williams is likely back as the backup. 

So he’s not retiring?

[NBASupes]

Just now, Spud2nique said:

So he’s not retiring?

No. 

[Spud2nique]

Just now, niremetal said:

Maybe I'm wrong about his shot...dang. Hopefully that translates to game action. Guess we'll find out in Summer League.

 

This is what Schlenk was talking about that he now hits his shots with more fluidity than during the season.

[RandomFan]

1. Yes

2. Correct. This previous seasons rules have been extended for another year meaning we can carry 15 regular contracts plus 2 additional 2 way contracts. 

3. Correct (unless I'm mistaken on the early Bird rights, which I'm not 100% sure on)

4. Correct. And if you listen to the Travis post-draft presser I posted in the Draft thread, someone asked him if our young guys were likely to spend some time in the G League this year, he emphasized the point that pretty much all of our young draft picks moving forward are likely to spend time in the G League because we don't and won't have the time to play them on a contending team anymore. Not like we used to do when them emphasis was on young guys developing. Which leads me to:

 

I get where you are coming from, but I disagree with your assertion that Sharife will need at least a full year of G League before being playable. He's playable immediately due to the insane processing and passing ability combined with the ability to break down defenses and penetrate to the rim. His outside shot needs a ton of work, but he can still score inside the arc and at the rim at a high clip. So, true there will be some serious limitations if he were forced to be the immediate backup PG in game 1; but then again, I don't expect him to be forced into that position either. 

While I don't think he needs to spend a full year in G League, I also don't think he's ready to be the primary backup PG on a championship contending team - at least not early in the season. And that's OK, because there is a wide range between those two points. 

What I think would be best for him and us is as the #3 PG bouncing back and forth between G League and the Hawks most of the season. He needs to spend time with the Hawks to see how our other guys prepare and work, especially Trae, and to be able to pick players brains, again especially Trae. he needs to have our coaches working with him daily on fixing his outside shot. He then needs to be able to take that info and skills development from practice to the G League to get playing time improving on all of it. Back and forth, multiple times.

And unfortunately we all know injuries are gonna happen. Trae or our #2 PG will end up missing time here and there during the season. That is when he gets the very valuable playing time experience in the NBA. Towards the end of his rookie year we can then re-evaluate where he is and see about a bigger role possibly. I highly doubt we end up giving a rookie picked outside of the early lottery a role in the playoffs unless forced too by injuries, but you never know. 

My main point is we don't need to just stick him in the G League all year long. It will actually speed up his development being able to spend SOME time around the Hawks and Trae even if he's not getting playing time with the big club. And he's bound to be needed in games at some point due to injuries even as the #3 PG, like Goody was needed a few times last year. 

Because Cooper is likely going to be such a very very good backup PG in his 2nd season, I would think that enhances the chance we bring back Lou to serve as the #2 PG on a 2 year contract with a team option for the 2nd year. Basically a 1 year contract we can move on from if/when Cooper is ready to assume the #2 PG role in his 2nd season.