Jalen Johnson may be better than De'Andre Hunter and Cam Reddish

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, AHF said:

 

 

I'll post some numbers about when the most successful players from recent classes hit milestones in a second and you can tell me if you think the wings and forwards are at a big disadvantage relative to point guards because of their size.  

My position is not that centers develop quickly.  It is that the idea that there is some correlation between size and development track doesn't make sense since PGs and Cs are the two toughest positions to which to adjust in the league.

 

Let me jump in right here for just a second. 

Correlation between size and development.....

Well, the reason why it's generally accepted that Centers develop slower than other position is all about size.   Historically coming out of HS and College, Centers did not have good body maturity to play against grown men their size and bigger.   This is a matter of age and size.  Sure, you had some guys that go against the norm like Dwight Howard but for every Dwight, there is a Keith Closs or a Jonathan Bender.   Even our good friend Kwame Brown is an example of guys who didn't mature quickly enough. 

For PGs.. most of the time, their development is only about learning the Xs and the Os.   And Some are just not PGs.  Andre Miller came right out.   Jason Kidd came right out.   CP3 came right out.  These are guys who had the understanding of the Xs and the Os before they hit a NBA court.  I know that there are some guys who didn't come right out. 

To say that it took Steve Nash 4 years before he was a starter is disingenuous.   Come on.. that first Phoenix team he was on had Old man Kevin Johnson, Young man Jason Kidd, and other man Sam Cassell.   Fortunately, he was traded to Dallas and given a chance to start. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 8/17/2021 at 12:32 PM, Hawkmoor said:

1. Jalen Johnson was a top 5 lottery pick ( just like Trae Young) who fell because of a false narrative.

2. Jalen Johnson brings MORE to the table that just a pure scorer and passer.  He can is a point forward who can play mulitple positions AND is a monster defender. He already has the look of what the Hawks WANT Cam Reddish to be.  Cam has come along very good lately, Johnson has a IMMEDIATE feel for the game that Cam is just now apporaching. Deandre is very good, is where the Hawks want him to be, but doesn't have the athletic ability of Johnson.

3.  I guarantee you the ONLY reason Johnson goes to College Park is because the Hawks will get contract VALUE out of Gallinari and possibly Bogi, before exploring a trade.  They most likely will see how the first half of the season plays out before the trade deadline.

4. This tread is OBVIOUSLY about potential because it CAN'T be no other way because the guy hasn't played one minute in the NBA yet.  The OP and myself are talking potential based on the talent level we see.

 

Ladies and Gentlemen. 

I NEVER agree with Hawkmoor.  Especially with his takes on Trae.

But I 100% co-sign this post.

 

 

 

[Final_quest]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Ladies and Gentlemen. 

I NEVER agree with Hawkmoor.  Especially with his takes on Trae.

But I 100% co-sign this post.

 

 

 

Thanks for getting this thread back on track. 

Can we start a new thread for anyone who wants to talk about which positions develop fastest? Let's keep this one about Jalen looking way better than Cam Reddish and why people would deny others the right to that observation.  

[Diesel]

10 hours ago, Final_quest said:

Thanks for getting this thread back on track. 

Can we start a new thread for anyone who wants to talk about which positions develop fastest? Let's keep this one about Jalen looking way better than Cam Reddish and why people would deny others the right to that observation.  

The direction of this thread was wrong in the first place.   Mainly because Potential ain't never won nothing.   In fact, there are many Busts that had potential.   Before we start comparing his potential to guys that have gone out on the court and proven their value, let's wait until he sees some action.   Somewhere, Billy Knight is talking about Marvin Williams Potential and how he can be a better player than CP3 and Deron Williams. 

[Hawkmoor]

27 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The direction of this thread was wrong in the first place.   Mainly because Potential ain't never won nothing.   In fact, there are many Busts that had potential.   Before we start comparing his potential to guys that have gone out on the court and proven their value, let's wait until he sees some action.   Somewhere, Billy Knight is talking about Marvin Williams Potential and how he can be a better player than CP3 and Deron Williams. 

" I got him ranked at the top of my board based on potential."  " You can't do that. Diesel said you can rank a player based on potential."  "What else do we base it on?" "We have won championships ranking players based on potential." 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Hawkmoor

[Diesel]

37 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

" I got him ranked at the top of my board based on potential."  " You can't do that. Diesel said you can rank a player based on potential."  "What else do we base it on?" "We have won championships ranking players based on potential." 

 

 

How about basing it on play vs. similar competition.   i.e. College Basketball. 

There are many guys who dominate the HS ranks.  Guys who put up 60 against HSers because they were the biggest or most athletic around.   But when they play that one year in College, they play against other guys who dominated their HSers.   All of these players are forced to play in a system with offensive schemes and defensive schemes similar to NBA play. 

Johnson didn't do well and didn't stay long in College.   Similar to Marvin Williams.   Marvin Williams came off the bench in college. 

That's the basis you're looking for... Your potential is validated by what they do amoung like competition...

That's not summer league.  In summer league nobody is playing defense and the offensive scheme gets broken down to a series of iso plays. 

Right now, it's just best to wait and see. 

[Hawkmoor]

10 minutes ago, Diesel said:

How about basing it on play vs. similar competition.   i.e. College Basketball. 

There are many guys who dominate the HS ranks.  Guys who put up 60 against HSers because they were the biggest or most athletic around.   But when they play that one year in College, they play against other guys who dominated their HSers.   All of these players are forced to play in a system with offensive schemes and defensive schemes similar to NBA play. 

Johnson didn't do well and didn't stay long in College.   Similar to Marvin Williams.   Marvin Williams came off the bench in college. 

That's the basis you're looking for... Your potential is validated by what they do amoung like competition...

That's not summer league.  In summer league nobody is playing defense and the offensive scheme gets broken down to a series of iso plays. 

Right now, it's just best to wait and see. 

The Summer League is even better.  The Hawks got to evaluate Johnson against NBA players, not High School, not College, the NBA.   What do you think the Summer League is for?  The NBA isn't giving these guys a paid vacation to chill in Vegas.  They are there to see the POTENTIAL of players.  For some reason, its a bad thing to comment on how good this guy is.  The Summer League DEFINITELY isn't about practice.

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Hawkmoor

[AHF]

16 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

@AHF All Summer League First Team.  Out the gate winning awards.  Cade Cunningham didn't make that squad.

 

 

I'm very glad he got it.  Fun exhibition.  But maybe summer league means something powerful for predicting success!  Let's see if TS can pull this off:

Jalen Johnson out Cam Thomas in - First Team is nice but 2021 Co-MVP is even better!

Kevin Huerter for Payton Prichard - Did Kev make first team Summer League?  No?  Well, Prichard did.  

OO out Louis King in - The Hawks pick up their second 2021 summer league MVP.  OO can't even show up for summer league let alone win MVP of the Vegas league.

Trae out Davion Mitchell in - They are basically the same height and Mitchell is under team control at a low salary for 4 years.  Trae couldn't win summer league MVP so imagine how much better  Co-MVP Mitchell will be than him when he reaches his potential!  

(I was pumped we drafted Jalen Johnson and remain very excited about his potential.  Watching him in summer league was a lot of fun.  It doesn't change my excitement for JJ or Coop, though.  I'd remain really high on both of them whether they struggled or succeeded in summer league play.)

[AHF]

16 hours ago, Diesel said:

To say that it took Steve Nash 4 years before he was a starter is disingenuous.   Come on.. that first Phoenix team he was on had Old man Kevin Johnson, Young man Jason Kidd, and other man Sam Cassell.   Fortunately, he was traded to Dallas and given a chance to start. 

I'll definitely grant you that but also bear in mind that in Dallas he averaged 7.9 points and 5.5 assists as a starter at age 24 and 8.6 points and 4.9 assists as an age 25 starter.  Do you really think he wasn't still developing his game and had reached his potential quickly like short people do?

[sturt]

Haven't really been following this thread, so forgive if at some point something like this was offered up to the discussion (... it's one that's just a tad too hypothetical, and quite a bit too premature and presumptuous to my mind, to even seriously discuss. But it's off-season, so why not, right?)

 

Curious just to gauge what people think, but not so much that I care to start an actual poll..............................................

 

You have agents for Cam, Dre and Jalen in the room, and pretending that the rules allowed this, (a) you're able to make a one-time offer to each one that will lock-in each of them up for 5 years if they accept, (b) with no consequences to the payroll and cap space, thus removing that variable from the equation, and (c) if they turn it down, each becomes a free agent immediately after making that decision...

So effectively, it's a scenario that brings into clearer view Hawksquawkers' perceived measure of the fair market value of each one based on what their performance (or lack thereof) so far and what each is perceived to be capable of achieving in the the next 5 years.

1. What's the average annual value of the contract you offer to Hunter, knowing that if he turns it down, you've lost him immediately?
2. What's the AAV of the contract you offer to Reddish?
3. What's the AAV of the one you offer to Johnson?

 

Thanks in advance for satisfying my curiosity.

 

(I have my own numbers, but pardon me that I'm going to hold off revealing mine... but after maybe 5-10 posts, I'll do that.)

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

The Summer League is even better.  The Hawks got to evaluate Johnson against NBA players, not High School, not College, the NBA.   What do you think the Summer League is for?  The NBA isn't giving these guys a paid vacation to chill in Vegas.  They are there to see the POTENTIAL of players.  For some reason, its a bad thing to comment on how good this guy is.  The Summer League DEFINITELY isn't about practice.

 

 

The summer league is a show case for ISO BALL that's it.  No Defense.  Nobody runs a real offense.  You don't get the truth measure of a players worth watching summer league... that's a joke.   IF I wanted to know who will be the next Big Balla Ed Gray...  I will watch summer league.  

Why do you think Dion Glover could dominate the SL but couldn't do shit in the NBA?

Yes, Dion Glover was better than Joe Johnson, Raja Bell, Kerry Kittles, Kwame Brown, Stephen Jackson, Michael Redd and a whole lot of dudes who were much better NBA players than He...  Why didn't his potential translate??  He was supposed to be an answer for Kobe. 

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

I'll definitely grant you that but also bear in mind that in Dallas he averaged 7.9 points and 5.5 assists as a starter at age 24 and 8.6 points and 4.9 assists as an age 25 starter.  Do you really think he wasn't still developing his game and had reached his potential quickly like short people do?

No...  He completely Sucked and So did Dirk.

 

[jy23]

9 hours ago, Diesel said:

How about basing it on play vs. similar competition.   i.e. College Basketball. 

There are many guys who dominate the HS ranks.  Guys who put up 60 against HSers because they were the biggest or most athletic around.   But when they play that one year in College, they play against other guys who dominated their HSers.   All of these players are forced to play in a system with offensive schemes and defensive schemes similar to NBA play. 

Johnson didn't do well and didn't stay long in College.   Similar to Marvin Williams.   Marvin Williams came off the bench in college. 

That's the basis you're looking for... Your potential is validated by what they do amoung like competition...

That's not summer league.  In summer league nobody is playing defense and the offensive scheme gets broken down to a series of iso plays. 

Right now, it's just best to wait and see. 

He didn’t do well in college? What games were you watching? Am I misunderstanding what you’re saying here? 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

9 hours ago, Diesel said:

How about basing it on play vs. similar competition.   i.e. College Basketball. 

There are many guys who dominate the HS ranks.  Guys who put up 60 against HSers because they were the biggest or most athletic around.   But when they play that one year in College, they play against other guys who dominated their HSers.   All of these players are forced to play in a system with offensive schemes and defensive schemes similar to NBA play. 

Johnson didn't do well and didn't stay long in College.   Similar to Marvin Williams.   Marvin Williams came off the bench in college. 

That's the basis you're looking for... Your potential is validated by what they do amoung like competition...

That's not summer league.  In summer league nobody is playing defense and the offensive scheme gets broken down to a series of iso plays. 

Right now, it's just best to wait and see. 

Is Jalen Johnson a better looking prospect than Marvin Williams in his rookie year?

[Diesel]

17 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Is Jalen Johnson a better looking prospect than Marvin Williams in his rookie year?

We're going to believe that Jalen is better than Marvin. 

Marvin had all the potential in the world though.

[JayBirdHawk]

On 8/16/2021 at 12:55 PM, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

That project tag will be thrown away after the 2nd preseason game.  That guy is good.  Real good.

Sooooo.....that didn't happen.. 

Two preseason games, 21 minutes, Zero points, 2 blocks, 5 rebounds, 1 assist.

[kg01]

6 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Sooooo.....that didn't happen.. 

Two preseason games, 21 minutes, Zero points, 2 blocks, 5 rebounds, 1 assist.

Ooooooh, this bump was ...

Man where's ol' cyde to defend himself ...

Who knew, after SL, that the rookie that'd need GL time most would be Jalen and not Coop'r?

I mean dudes were planning on Collins trades.

Now they'll have to settle for #Trae'dYoung

[bleachkit]

On 8/20/2021 at 6:16 PM, Diesel said:

We're going to believe that Jalen is better than Marvin. 

Marvin had all the potential in the world though.

Eh, Marvin was overrated as a prospect. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Sooooo.....that didn't happen.. 

Two preseason games, 21 minutes, Zero points, 2 blocks, 5 rebounds, 1 assist.

 

Played out of position and is best with the ball in his hands.

He's a 3, not a 4.  Nate will figure that out in due time.

[hazer]

I’ll say it for the 50th time: Coop will be #2 PG no later than the break