Build Proposals Around Trae = Exercise in Futility

[kg01]

2 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Fixed it for you.

Whaaaaat?  So I can't just trade Hunter for Kawhi and set injuries to 0 in 2k?

[Peoriabird]

2 hours ago, Final_quest said:

So far you've said Hunter is better than an average starter and should be paid more than Kevin Huerter.  I wish there was more to be excited about than that.  I'm not convinced.  If Hunter was great, there would be a lot more to say than that.  

I didn't say he was great now nor do I think he has reached his ceiling

[Peoriabird]

37 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

On what criteria or metric is he NOT below average?  

Among Starting Forwards (min 15 Games), he ranks:

• 67 of 114 in NET Rating
• 82 of 114 in EFG%
• 106 of 114 in Reb
• 99 of 114 in Ast
• 49 of 114 in Pts
• 66 of 114 in TO
• 71 of 114 in Stl
• 86 of 114 in Blks

Among 98 SF in the NBA (not just Starters), he ranks

• 72nd in Total RAPTOR
• 84th in OFF RAPTOR
• 46th in DEF RAPTOR

 

There are 114 starting small forward in the league?  Some of those stats maybe screwed a bit by low volume players

[REHawksFan]

6 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

There are 114 starting small forward in the league?  Some of those stats maybe screwed a bit by low volume players

No. NBA.com doesn't sort by SF vs PF.  So the best you can do is isolate any "Forwards" that have started games.  I set the minimum games at 15 to sort out the minimum players that can skew the data.  Even if you just go by the RAPTOR data which is supposedly only SF, he ranks near the bottom of all SFs in the league.  Certainly well below average.  

[REHawksFan]

39 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

There are 114 starting small forward in the league?  Some of those stats maybe screwed a bit by low volume players

 

31 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

No. NBA.com doesn't sort by SF vs PF.  So the best you can do is isolate any "Forwards" that have started games.  I set the minimum games at 15 to sort out the minimum players that can skew the data.  Even if you just go by the RAPTOR data which is supposedly only SF, he ranks near the bottom of all SFs in the league.  Certainly well below average.  

Had to go to BBall Reference and do it manually.  Here is the data for the top SFs across all teams, so this is out of 30 players:

• 18th in pts
• 25th in total reb
• 24th in O reb
• 21st in steals
• 23rd in asts
• 17th in FG%
• 7th in 3PT%
• 18th in eFG%
• 12th in FTA

So no, I don't see any logic where you can legitimately say he's NOT a below average starter in the NBA at SF. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by REHawksFan

[JTB]

I’m good with giving fair criticism of Trae if you’re going to critique everyone else too but since most of fans won’t do that I find myself defending Trae because it’s definitely not a one player issue we have this season.

 

Tired of Hunter getting a pass….
what really gets me is how Hunter continues to be overlooked! Hunter is average SF at best with some flashes of very good defense at times…I don’t believe Trae is the reason he’s not good offensively consistently. Trae is just the fall guy for the inconsistent Wing players offensively though Bogi has shown to do just fine when healthy as a starter or bench player.

Even when Trae defers to Hunter consistently you never know what hunter you’re going to get ….aggressive hunter, passive hunter, your guess ????….hunter gets a pass too much from hawks fans regarding his offensive play or just simply ignored. The truth is Hunter gets plenty of offensive opportunities and mismatches he can take advantage of but either he’s stumbling over the ball trying to dribble like a small guard instead of playing like a big SF one game then a few games later he’s all of sudden aggressive and attacking lanes that are always open for him yet Trae gets blamed for his lack of offense somehow by the Trae hating gang.

In my opinion Hunter can work with Trae and this team offensively if he just learned to attack the goal consistently and aggressively and stop the guard like dribble moves he tries to do and stop settling for the jumper! Those lanes are always there for him to attack and they been there all season long. Trae should not be viewed as the reason Hunter doesn’t do that and of course Hunter should be hitting those open corner 3s but my biggest issue is that Trae gets blamed by the Trae haters for Hunters offensive mishaps that are solely Hunters fault.

we have a big SF in hunter and it doesn’t feel like it from an offensive and rebounding standpoint. Trae should get criticism for things (that’s fair) but not this teams individual offensive flaws.

 

Taking advantage of mismatches doesn’t happen enough outside of 3 players:

The offense is not going to create open looks on every possession and trae isn’t going to get his teammates open looks throughout a whole game on every possession. A lot of times it’s about winning the matchup advantage in the NBA which is what McMillan seems to preach and that’s not a bad strategy even though I am in agreement with most and don’t love McMillans offense scheme overall ….HOWEVER he has placed an emphasis and rightfully so on the team taking advantage of mismatches when teams switch but only 3 players Trae, Bogi, Gallo can take advantage of a mismatch consistently and that’s a problem! Our other guys get smaller defenders on them plenty but they can’t score at will over the smaller player and that’s what hurts the offense more than anything. The offensive individual talent just isn’t there if it were McMillans offense would be viewed differently.

[Final_quest]

Trae has always had his detractors on here, but some posters noticeably amped up criticism of Trae after Cam got traded.  Trae became the scapegoat for Cam's dissatisfaction and failed expectations and now it's on to Hunter.  

Truth is I still have a lot of hope for Hunter going forward, but if we are being realistic about Trae's limitations we need to acknowledge how much Hunter and Cam lack of development hurt our franchise.  Bogi and Huerter have been inconsistent as well.  

When I look at last year compared to this year I don't see Trae as the problem.  1. Capela was on fire putting up 20/20 nights and had 10 blocks one game.  2. Bogi was out of his mind shooting 50% from three for a stretch averaging 22.  3. The team chemistry was Connected and Believe.  Now the team chemistry is Disconnected and Disbelief.  

BTW...Heliocentric Trae and can't play with wings Trae is the new making every thread into a tanking debate for me.  To be fair it's about 20% of where that craziness went but I'm afraid to see it rising.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Final_quest
More to be said.

[hylndr11]

It's not just here.  NBA sees what it needs to do with Trae on this given team.  The issue is we also talking the value of these players , were not goinf to get much for these players at this point , the hope has to be surprise again in the post season and get their value up and see what we can do.  I don't see what else there is to discuss, getting rid of Trae and tanking again just doesn't seem realistic without a whole new front office coming in as well.

Edited March 22, 2022 by hylndr11

[Hawkmoor]

The saga continues.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Hawkmoor

[Wretch]

I want to say that I can't believe this is where we are, but law of averages and all that I guess...

I'm sorry, but the Trae criticism is just irrational.  All players have some kind of weakness.  With a talent like Trae though, you accept it.  That's the correct move.  You don't throw away Kobe because he shoots too much.  You don't trade LeBron because he struggles with free throws.  You don't turn Giannis into a 1B because he isn't skilled at turnaround jumpers.   You compensate for what you have to and you go on about your day.

I'll give you...

- Preference 
If you prefer a lock-down defender at PG or a more athletic PG, sure.  If you prefer a combo guard running curls off of screens, ok.  I'm not willing to entertain a conversation about what this man does offensively.  He's an anomaly.  

- Equivalent exchange
If you trade Trae and bring back a Tier 1 star and maybe something else in the package.  Though you're still just putting six in one hand, half a dozen in another.  Every player is unique and requires his own unique framework built around him.  Though, if you're saying you would rather build around another star then I'll give you that.  Sure.

- Defense
I've seen Trae out there half-assing it and I've seen him locked in on defense.  I don't think the rumored stance of "I do so much else that I can't give you 100% on defense" is valid - if he even alluded to such a thing.  Outside of the obvious standouts, I put very little value in individual defensive quantifiers/metrics - VERY LITTLE - but if you subscribe to it...sure?  Maybe?

Other than the aforementioned concessions, I'm not going to entertain this conversation.  Especially not from known day-one haters.  It's just a non-conversation and I'll have no part in it.

Where I'm at...

All in on John Collins and Kevin Huerter
Collins is 1C and is the heart of this team.  He needs a 1B on this team as much as Trae does.  Otherwise the expectations are simply too high for him.  Huerter does what you need him to do.  I don't know how else to say it.  As long as you're not expecting Klay Thompson, he is exactly the player that every team in the league would like to have.

We need a legit starting wing - a better version of Bogi or Hunter.  We can't have both of them some-timing it up.  Kev is not that guy either. Trae draws too much attention for these guys to be missing big shots.  They are throwing the whole team at Trae and these guys are WIDE. OPEN.  It's a wrap if they can't hit those shots and...well are you guys even watching the same team I'm watching?  It's not the whole game, it's KEY possessions that you need to watch.  This is why we're losing games (and why the offensive ratings are misleading IMO).  We're not hitting shots when we need to because the defense is doing the obvious - stop Trae and let the Hawks beat you.  Same thing they did to Joe Johnson.

Other than that, we need more toughness.  We're a little too young and a little too nice.  We need some tough-minded and capable vets.

[Peoriabird]

The problem ain't offense guys!

[macdaddy]

40 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

The problem ain't offense guys!

That's what everyone says because we're 3rd in offensive rating in the league.....any guesses where we land for the 4th quarter?

Spoiler

21

 

[Wretch]

51 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

That's what everyone says because we're 3rd in offensive rating in the league.....any guesses where we land for the 4th quarter?

  Hide contents

21

 

Now how can we be so good overall, but decidedly below pedestrian in the 4th?  It's because...

6 hours ago, Wretch said:

It's not the whole game, it's KEY possessions that you need to watch.  This is why we're losing games (and why the offensive ratings are misleading IMO).

In my line of work, that's what we call a "correlation"...possibly leading to an "indicator of compromise." The defense will switch it up, just enough to keep it close.  When it counts, LIKE THE 4TH QUARTER, they will turn up the pressure on Trae and watch us melt.  Every single time.  This isn't complicated.  This is simple stuff man...

It's too easy to pick one thing and say that's what we need.  Struggling teams never need ONLY one thing.  Championship teams are not built on "this one weird trick."  It's the right combination of the right things...  Star players (PLURAL), solid/consistent starters, a great bench (better if led by a great 6th man), a GOOD COACH, a disciplined and EFFICIENT offense, and yes, solid defense.  All contenders check these boxes.  We're not.

So I don't think a 2nd star is going to magically fix us, but we are going to be, at best middling team, EVEN WITH GREAT DEFENSE, until we find one.  We exceeded expectations last year because guys were hitting shots - and they were still inconsistent.  If we had "good Bogi" consistently and a healthy Trae, we would have moonwalked into the Finals - and brought it home.

[terrell]

On 3/21/2022 at 5:04 AM, benhillboy said:

I see my fellow posters grasping at straws as to what type of player “fits” with Trae.  Y’all actually trying to build around a max guy who’s the worst defender in the league?  Ask Schlenk how that’s working out: 

124-161 with Trae starting, .435 winning percentage 

11-14 with Trae in street clothes, .441 winning percentage 

These are the active small guards with “similar” career ratings to Trae (114 to 117)

Kyrie Irving 115 109

Mike Conley 113 108

Darren Collision 112 110

DJ Augustine 112 111

CJ McCollum 111 113

Patty Mills 111 110

Sweet Lou 111 111

Isaiah freaking Thomas 114 112

Only McCollum is underwater, still a point less than Trae.

It doesn’t matter how much offense he “creates” individually.  The impact it has on the team is below average.  I been studying ratings for a minute, you’d be hard pressed to find a team rated 2nd in offense a game below .500 this late in the season.

Look at these frames of Clint’s lost ball turnover:

Look at the poor spacing Trae creates driving toward Gallo with 3 defenders’ eyes on him.
 

Look at the bad dribble pick up for an awful aborted shot attempt with no offensive rebounding in sight.  Allowed a single defender to turn him away from the hoop 30 something feet out.

Look how he puts Capela in a jam.  At lease he tried to give Jones a misdirection when he got off the ball, clearly he’s a high level defender.
 

Clint loses the ball, y’all can debate over whether it was a foul or whatever.  But witness Trae flail his arms at the referee before Jones even realizes the ball is loose.  What does Trae do?  He backs up even further away from the ball.  
 

Of course Jones pounces upon it the exact instant he detects it, knowing he’ll have no contest.  Trae still complaining after the play is over, anything that prevents him from having to be involved in the huddle he loves. This same shit happened in the second straight loss against Miami with PJ Tucker late in the fourth.

You simply can’t build around players who have it all handed to them yet sacrifice nothing.  I told y’all months before the piece with Jackie McMullan came out that Trae’s mates could take him or leave him.  You think that’s changed after they demolish the West’s second seed without him yet get handled by the 10th the very next game he returns?  Nope.

His style of play can work in the very short term, obviously.  He can fill it up as quick as anyone in the league.  But in the long term we’ve seen his style absolutely neuter the players alongside him.  Y’all saw how many driving lanes were created for the wings against Memphis when the ball moved.  How many points did Delon save with his effort on defense?  A few less than Trae’s mere presence usually surrenders.  No improvement in shot creation or playmaking from our Bigs because their PG only uses them for PNR props.

When Trae starts to get paid there’s gonna be a dark cloud over this franchise.  We’re gonna get national coverage for all the wrong reasons smh.  

I already told yall all of this...

[terrell]

On 3/21/2022 at 9:54 AM, bleachkit said:

He's not an easy star to build around, but we have to try. 

This......Hes not going anywhere

[terrell]

On 3/21/2022 at 10:28 AM, Diesel said:

Trae has gone further than Luka and Ja.  PERIOD.

Both Luka and Ja has had teams that were built up to cover their deficiencies.  Trae has not.   Trae has been given a team that should match his ability by giving him outside shooters, but our outside shooters are the most streaky outside shooters in history.  In Brunson, Smith, and Bullock.. Luka got some 3 and D players.   Ja has a team that can win without him whoose calling card is defense.   We have 3 guys who are one trick ponies... they shoot from outside.   Kev is allergic to the inside.   Bogi plays horrible defense.  And Hunter... when he's not on the IL is inconsistent at everything. 

 

 

So Schlenk is horrible like I've been saying.. Mavs havent had any top picks or FA $ since drafting Luka..Hell, They gave us a top 10 pick,  Yet youre bragging about Lukas supporting cast.. Just damn...

Edited March 22, 2022 by terrell

[Hawkmoor]

1 hour ago, Wretch said:

Now how can we be so good overall, but decidedly below pedestrian in the 4th?  It's because...

In my line of work, that's what we call a "correlation"...possibly leading to an "indicator of compromise." The defense will switch it up, just enough to keep it close.  When it counts, LIKE THE 4TH QUARTER, they will turn up the pressure on Trae and watch us melt.  Every single time.  This isn't complicated.  This is simple stuff man...

It's too easy to pick one thing and say that's what we need.  Struggling teams never need ONLY one thing.  Championship teams are not built on "this one weird trick."  It's the right combination of the right things...  Star players (PLURAL), solid/consistent starters, a great bench (better if led by a great 6th man), a GOOD COACH, a disciplined and EFFICIENT offense, and yes, solid defense.  All contenders check these boxes.  We're not.

So I don't think a 2nd star is going to magically fix us, but we are going to be, at best middling team, EVEN WITH GREAT DEFENSE, until we find one.  We exceeded expectations last year because guys were hitting shots - and they were still inconsistent.  If we had "good Bogi" consistently and a healthy Trae, we would have moonwalked into the Finals - and brought it home.

Opportunities in sports come and go.  Last season MIGHT be the peak of what the Hawks accomplish with Travis, Trae, etc.

[hylndr11]

I think we are a playoff team meaning we will see the performances we aren't really gonna see during rs, but need John back for that to resolve 

[TRW]

So now Trae is the problem, JSMH. It's not his fault that most of his supporting casts are bums masquerading as NBA players. We were hornswaggled, bamboozled by our own minds. We can't blame the owner, the general manager, or the coach. The players have to take most of the blame for this nonsense. A coach can call a great play but it won't work unless the players run it correctly and buys in. Trae really needs help and we're going to lose him if we don't get another legit star within the next 2-3 years. Everybody other than Trae should be available. 

[MarylandHawk]

He is a great star to build around. I have watched the Hawks for 25 years and I have had the most fun watching the Trae led Hawks. He has already done more than any other player in franchise history and the arrow is still pointing up.   At the end of the day there is only one team that will go home happy each year and he gives us the best chance to be that team now and in the future. Oh I didn’t see the hate tonight on Trae, I guess they will have to wait for another “off” game.