Build Proposals Around Trae = Exercise in Futility

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

Rockets went to WCF twice.  Once with D Howard once with CP3.  

D Howard was terrible with the Rockets!!! Lol

[kg01]

Just now, NBASupes said:

Diesel. It's the reason we even dislike each other. I almost got banned multiple times going at him about Sheldon

Oof.  That's tough.

Even the blemishes you have on your record pale in comparison to that.  And this is coming from me who (allegedly) wanted us to draft Jarret Culver and Mo Bamba. 

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

It's not a non factor but it's not critical. When we had the 60 win Hawks, our rebounding was below average at best.

I tend to agree with you about rebounding but with Bud teams where you never ever try to get an offensive rebound, the rebounding is always going to be low.  couple that with a short starting center who's role is more to stretch the floor then it gets worse.   So to your point it didn't matter so much on that team. 

[NBASupes]

Just now, kg01 said:

Oof.  That's tough.

Even the blemishes you have on your record pale in comparison to that.  And this is coming from me who (allegedly) wanted us to draft Jarret Culver and Mo Bamba. 

Obi Toppin was my top guy in the Melo and Ant class. I did have them having the highest potential but damn, were Ant or Melo not better than Obi at any time of their careers. LMAO. Be careful with older rookies, they are older for a reason. 

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

D Howard was terrible with the Rockets!!! Lol

I don't disagree entirely but he was 15/10 terrible.  He wasn't Hawks terrible.   But, i can't remember your quote exactly, but to say Harden single handedly led the team to contention is not really true.  Mainly because they didn't really contend.   But Harden definitely had better players around him than we currently have on the Hawks.  

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Obi Toppin was my top guy in the Melo and Ant class. I did have them having the highest potential but damn, were Ant or Melo not better than Obi at any time of their careers. LMAO. Be careful with older rookies, they are older for a reason. 

Yeah that was a bad call but still wish we'd gotten Obi in the Cam trade instead of Knox. 

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Paul was there like 2 season?

You got a point...  So Let's talk about the years that Houston made it out of the first round..

2014-2015...  All harden had around was  Howard, Smoove, Ariza and Patrick Beverley.  I mean.. if you were looking for Defense and Rebounding, you have it but... no stars right.

2015-2016... same as the year before.. but now Clint Capela started making his move.   Also, I didn't mention Jason Terry from the previous year.. but he played more this year.

2016-2017... same as the previous year.. except they got rid of Howard and picked up  Eric Gordon, Lou Williams, and Ryan Anderson. 

After that they picked up CP3 and went from a 55 win team to a 65 win team. 

So that's it... 

I would say that Harden had some teams built to his strengths and i would say that Trae hasn't been given a team as detailed as Harden had.

[Peoriabird]

4 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I don't disagree entirely but he was 15/10 terrible.  He wasn't Hawks terrible.   But, i can't remember your quote exactly, but to say Harden single handedly led the team to contention is not really true.  Mainly because they didn't really contend.   But Harden definitely had better players around him than we currently have on the Hawks.  

Capela led the league in rebounding last year.  Played much better defense than Howard ever did in Houston. What's your point about Howard?

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

D Howard was terrible with the Rockets!!! Lol

Terrible as a superstar.. but still a great Cog with the rockets... Rebounding and Defense. 

His 2014 was 16 & 11, and about 1.5bpg...

 

[Peoriabird]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You got a point...  So Let's talk about the years that Houston made it out of the first round..

2014-2015...  All harden had around was  Howard, Smoove, Ariza and Patrick Beverley.  I mean.. if you were looking for Defense and Rebounding, you have it but... no stars right.

2015-2016... same as the year before.. but now Clint Capela started making his move.   Also, I didn't mention Jason Terry from the previous year.. but he played more this year.

2016-2017... same as the previous year.. except they got rid of Howard and picked up  Eric Gordon, Lou Williams, and Ryan Anderson. 

After that they picked up CP3 and went from a 55 win team to a 65 win team. 

So that's it... 

I would say that Harden had some teams built to his strengths and i would say that Trae hasn't been given a team as detailed as Harden had.

You proved my point...no stars

[Atlantaholic]

23 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

So is that your suggestion for our approach going forward? Get gritty dogged defenders who might not be the best offensive players? It's worth a try I guess.

I'm not saying that is my suggestion but that is what the Mavs have done. 

This year the Hawks right now are 2nd in the league in offensive rating despite really not having anyone outside of Trae Young who is a top 50 offensive player in the NBA. So yea, the criticisms of the Trae "offense" are absolutely absurd. Hunter, Huerter and Bogi get so many open looks with Trae Young on the floor to assume they would be better on a team where they wouldn't get those looks is silly. Huerter is a shooter but he missed by my count at least 4 completely wide open shots yesterday, Hunter misses wide open shots all the time, and his FG% with Trae on and off the floor speak for itself (what are Hunter's numbers in games without Trae? his numbers coming off the bench?)

Delon Wright next to trae in favor of Huerter is one of the biggest no brainers out there, and one of the biggest coaching failures by Nate.  If we simply shelf Huerter and put Delon in there next to Trae we are instantly a much better team, I guarantee it.  Our lineup we had in the fourth against NO (where we outplayed the heck out of them) should be THE lineup right now without JC, fact it's taking Nate so long to see that is mind boggling to me. None of this absolves Trae from not playing defense btw, that is a legit criticism and problem. But last year the Hawks were top 12 in defensive rating over the last 40 games or so, so we know playing team defense with Trae CAN be done. Mavs have built a defensive team around Luka, same way that Sixers built a defensive team around AI. You could tell that was the Hawks plan with Cam and Hunter, but they did/have not panned out. 

 

[Diesel]

13 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Diesel. It's the reason we even dislike each other. I almost got banned multiple times going at him about Sheldon

This is crazy... Both of the guys we wanted were out of the league in 3 years... so what's the point?

I didn't want Marvin Williams at all... and most of the board did... I don't hate most of the board because of that??

I mean.. .if you want to ride somebody bad pick Resume... didn't you say that Marvin was going to be the next Jordan or something to that effect??  That should cause some self hate... But I don't get on your case because of it... I don't constantly ride you because you said something that turned out to be wrong.. if we did that on this board all day, nobody would like anybody. 

 

 

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

This is crazy... Both of the guys we wanted were out of the league in 3 years... so what's the point?

I didn't want Marvin Williams at all... and most of the board did... I don't hate most of the board because of that??

I mean.. .if you want to ride somebody bad pick Resume... didn't you say that Marvin was going to be the next Jordan or something to that effect??  That should cause some self hate... But I don't get on your case because of it... I don't constantly ride you because you said something that turned out to be wrong.. if we did that on this board all day, nobody would like anybody. 

 

 

Who's out of the league? Brandon Roy played 7 years and all of it was a million times better than Shellhead. Rudy Gay is still playing. 

 

We both didn't want Marvin. I always been on record that I wanted Deron and would be okay with CP3. Marvin and JJJ are my least favorite prospects of all time.

Edited March 21, 2022 by NBASupes

[Diesel]

14 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

I'm not saying that is my suggestion but that is what the Mavs have done. 

This year the Hawks right now are 2nd in the league in offensive rating despite really not having anyone outside of Trae Young who is a top 50 offensive player in the NBA. So yea, the criticisms of the Trae "offense" are absolutely absurd. Hunter, Huerter and Bogi get so many open looks with Trae Young on the floor to assume they would be better on a team where they wouldn't get those looks is silly. Huerter is a shooter but he missed by my count at least 4 completely wide open shots yesterday, Hunter misses wide open shots all the time, and his FG% with Trae on and off the floor speak for itself (what are Hunter's numbers in games without Trae? his numbers coming off the bench?)

Delon Wright next to trae in favor of Huerter is one of the biggest no brainers out there, and one of the biggest coaching failures by Nate.  If we simply shelf Huerter and put Delon in there next to Trae we are instantly a much better team, I guarantee it.  Our lineup we had in the fourth against NO (where we outplayed the heck out of them) should be THE lineup right now without JC, fact it's taking Nate so long to see that is mind boggling to me. None of this absolves Trae from not playing defense btw, that is a legit criticism and problem. But last year the Hawks were top 12 in defensive rating over the last 40 games or so, so we know playing team defense with Trae CAN be done. Mavs have built a defensive team around Luka, same way that Sixers built a defensive team around AI. You could tell that was the Hawks plan with Cam and Hunter, but they did/have not panned out. 

 

Yea!!!  Talk about that Gravity Shit....

I agree with your post.  Here's my one concern.

I have watched over the season... I don't know if we have figured out how to use Delon next to Trae.   I think we're just getting it but it's not as easy a marriage as you would think... and I think it's personality driven.     What I mean is that Delon works great in the 2nd Unit... mainly because I think it's his personality to defer on offense.    So he plays with Lou, Bogi, Gallo, and OO.  All of these guys benefit from a guy who can distribute and get out of the way.   While Lou is really the PG of that unit,  Delon is the OG who handles the ball maybe 3rd most.  However, when he does handle it, he's either getting a Hockey assist or he's hitting the open shot. 

Well, when you pull him up to play with Trae... the hope is that he has to change the way he plays OG and become the main distributor.  The problem has been on those occassions that he has been on the floor with Trae.. he has switched to being a deferrer and has made Trae the primary ball handler again.   

IN our best picture, we would need Delon to be the main ball handler and let Trae play off ball.   I think we can get there, but it requires a personality change by Delon.   I think we have been moving to that point and our game against Memphis gave Delon some much needed confidence. 

[kg01]

28 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Obi Toppin was my top guy in the Melo and Ant class. I did have them having the highest potential but damn, were Ant or Melo not better than Obi at any time of their careers. LMAO. Be careful with older rookies, they are older for a reason. 

Ooh, this is a great comment because the bolded is literally what we kept telling you that year, but you wouldn't listen.  You kept giving us analytics that told us he was gonna be great.

The moral of the story is the numbers don't tell the whole tale.

This isn't me 'going at you'.  Just saying ....

[Spud2nique]

2 minutes ago, kg01 said:

This isn't me 'going at you'.

I will, we told him about Obi.

[Diesel]

17 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Who's out of the league? Brandon Roy played 7 years and all of it was a million times better than Shellhead. Rudy Gay is still playing. 

 

We both didn't want Marvin. I always been on record that I wanted Deron and would be okay with CP3. Marvin and JJJ are my least favorite prospects of all time.

Oh.. I'm sorry.. Roy played 6 years...not 7...

But after his 4th year, his career was over... He even retired... and tried to come back..   

And Shelden played. 5 years and we traded him after his 2nd year...  So we never invested a big contract like PTL did for Roy...

But here's the irony in all of this...

If we never had Shleden... we would not have been in position to get your favorite player... AL HORFORD...  You should be praising the pick of Shelden and Not Roy...

 

[kg01]

13 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I will, we told him about Obi.

We certainly did.  I didn't go in on him because I got skeletons in my own closet.  Bro, I wanted us to draft Sexton and Bamba over Trae/Luk a.  I can only go so far before I'm out over my skis.  

[JayBirdHawk]

Happy Monday Squawkers!  Great way to start the week, lol.

[Final_quest]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

Trae will be paid $207 mil? Hunter getting $10 mil a year? Plus he has been thru multiple injuries so his explosiveness doesn't look the same, he is constantly plays out of position and is asked to guard point guard because no one else on the team can. Teams literally run plays to screen Hunter off of their best scorer to get them matched with Bogi or Huerter constantly.

I don't think Hunter will do anything to merit a big contract either.  I wish he did.  

I think the #BlameTrae crowd is shifting focus away from the failure of our Wing Stop draft class.  They pinned the hopes of the franchise on Hunter and Cam.  That failure is prompting them to put the lack of team success on Trae instead of guys who were supposed to be stars and are instead below average NBA starters.

Drafting poorly in that class is hurting us more than anything at the moment.    

[REHawksFan]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

I mean there's a lot to poke holes in this thread.   Firstly, it's from a guy on record as hating Trae from day one.  So not sure there was a lot of objectivity in the analysis.  

Breakdown of a play where Clint can't hold onto the ball to expose Trae's bad defense?   How did you pick one when that happens 20 times a game.

And my favorite piece of 'evidence', Trae's win-loss record when more than half his games have been played on a tanking team.  

Neglected to mention that he took this team on his back further than Smoove, Sap, Joe, Horford, Teague, Nique, Deke.   The same teammates that are fumbling and scared to shoot this season were all smiles and buckets last year.    We got guys who maybe are mad that Trae's defense is bad but get to the other end of the court and are so paralyzed that they might have to drive the ball they just keep passing it back to him.   

There are players out there that will win with Trae.  We'll see how the analytics shape out then.  Like end of last season suddenly Trae will be 'much improved'.  

The 5-man combination of Trae / Bogie / Kevin / JC / Clint have played the 3rd most minutes together on the team this year and have a Net Rating of +29.1.  The Hawks are 17-14 in those games. The problem is they've only been available together for 31 of 71 games.   And if you isolate those games to ones where each of those 5 players played 20 min or more they are 15-7.  

I say that to say I'm not convinced that the current group of players CAN'T win around Trae.  I just think they need to be available on to play MORE and they need (especially Trae) to play defense with consistent effort.  But a +29.1 Net Rating is evidence they can get it done if available.