Hawks looking to move John Collins? This again?

[Vol4ever]

On 12/23/2022 at 7:27 AM, Plainview1981 said:

The problem with this team getting draft picks is that they blow the picks anyway 

This^^^^^^

We are not rebuilding.   We need chemistry among our vets.   JC is being left out and it doesn't matter if we get someone back in a trade I don't believe it will change anything.  I'm sorry but coach ain't getting the cohesiveness needed out of this team.  

[JTB]

On 12/23/2022 at 7:21 AM, Wretch said:

I'm someone who is reluctant to make predictions at the start of the season...let alone base my entire opinion of a player on one game and from a single play.  Obviously this isn't about one highlight.  We've been watching him for years and I've probably given JC more attention than any other Hawks player.  This is why my opinion of him changed from trade bait to my favorite player on the team.

Collins is not a Tier 1 scorer.  I am not suggesting that he could carry us offensively, neither do I expect us to defer to him over Trae/DJM in clutch situations.  That's more of a conversation stemming from 2+ seasons ago and even then, I didn't suggest that Collins was that kind of player.  So, let's just get that out of the way.  

My opinion is that he is a very good complimentary piece - which is what we need more so than another alpha scorer.  I don't have time to sew together a montage of highlights for JC, but there's a good sampling of what he is capable of from this game against Orlando earlier in the season:

Collins is capable of playing like that every game, but this offense with the addition of DJM is impacting him mightily.   We are stubbornly focused on midrange/PNR.  We're good at it, so the defense unsurprisingly...is locking the paint down.  That affects Collins the same as it does our back court - except he's not the same kind of ISO baller.  Ball movement and perimeter shooting will give space for JC to score in the post (as the highlight was showing), but this offense is laughably light on both.  He was already losing touches to Capela.  With the addition of DJM as an alpha mid-range scorer and Hunter now stepping up as the 3rd in line to "take a turn"...Collins does not have the space or the touches (which most players need to get in a rhythm) to be an effective/consistent 3rd option. 

As it was last year, his only real opportunity is spot up shooter.  This is where I have to concede because he is struggling mightily with his 3pt shot.  However, JC was shooting ~39% from long distance over a three year window.  That's a pretty strong indicator for a PF.

Excellent post.

and this is why McMillan may not be the right coach cause just like LP he don’t design plays for Collins and seems to be happy with that decision.

I too believe Collins could be impactful offensively in other ways . Mainly by set plays that gets him good looks.

It’s crazy that this coaching staff doesn’t run more plays for the role players who can’t create their own shots and rather focus on Trae and Murray instead. That’s not to say the offense shouldn’t be built around them but the problem is our system also doesn’t showcase any other talent outside of Trae, Murray, & Capela.

[Sothron]

John was putting up 22 and 10 his third year in the NBA. He's still only 25. I refuse to believe he can't be more effective. They run zero plays for him. If he's not there for the random lob when Capela is on the bench he basically gets zero shots. 

[Diesel]

32 minutes ago, Sothron said:

John was putting up 22 and 10 his third year in the NBA. He's still only 25. I refuse to believe he can't be more effective. They run zero plays for him. If he's not there for the random lob when Capela is on the bench he basically gets zero shots. 

This is my problem with the Trade JC mob.   We don't recognize what we have in JC.   If you get no plans run for you, then you're going to look average.   The thing that is needed is for the coach to develop plays that will benefit the 4. 

I was watching how Chicago and LAL used the triangle offense under Phil Jackson. 

 

When it was first used by the Lakers, it look like guys just going standing in a designated place.  But as I watched, I started to see guys just getting open from the shear force of ball and player movement.  It was ugly but effective. 

This is what we miss...

 

Everybody moving.   We play pretty much a two man game and most of our focus outside of that is 1 on 1 on the three point line.  We don't conduct anything that focuses on the midrange or the middle.   That's our problem. 

 

 

[Gray Mule]

Recently it's been mentioned that, in addition to Collins, the Holiday brothers and Jalen Johnson could be added to any trade to make the $$$ figures work.  None of them are getting major minutes with the return of healthy players.

As the season began we were told that there might be a lot of movement of seldom used bench players and these three fit as well as some others.  Just something to keep in mind.

[terrell]

Is this guy legit?

 

[JTB]

2 hours ago, Sothron said:

John was putting up 22 and 10 his third year in the NBA. He's still only 25. I refuse to believe he can't be more effective. They run zero plays for him. If he's not there for the random lob when Capela is on the bench he basically gets zero shots. 

 

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

This is my problem with the Trade JC mob.   We don't recognize what we have in JC.   If you get no plans run for you, then you're going to look average.   The thing that is needed is for the coach to develop plays that will benefit the 4. 

 

While I agree heavily with the two of you I think there are unfortunate scenarios that are for and against JC therefore I don’t think there’s an agenda to trade him like many believe I think it’s purely based off specific decisions that goes with McMillan and his staff. Which one is long term?

For me Collins has to be traded for a better offensive 4 or 5 (if Cap is included) IF we keep Mcmillian because he doesn’t know how to use JC whatsoever and proves it every season. The longer we keep McMillan and his staff the less valuable JC appears to be an 2-way overall player and don’t get me wrong, I know it’s because of the coaching staff but the reality is they just aren’t a good fit together (Collins and McMillan coaching staff). But we do have to give mcmillian and his staff props on the defensive development of JC. Collins has become a good defender under Mcmillian and wasn’t one under LP or Bud (Bud shouldn’t count since it was only one season JC played under him)

 

Now say we bring in a different coach this summer like Snyder, hell even Steve Nash (hope not) ….I would rather keep Collins at all cost because a more offensive minded coach is going to make Collins look like an actual strength beside Trae & Murray and the rest of this team.

 

However the odds of us getting a new coach really depends on the season in my opinion. Season goes well I believe Collins is out of here and McMillan is here long term simply because the fit isn’t good. Season goes downhill then mcmillian will be fired during the season and JC has a good chance at staying put I say.

 

[JTB]

5 minutes ago, terrell said:

Is this guy legit?

 

Whoa! So what we getting in back in such a deal????

id much rather keep collins over kuzma but if this is true I’m worried about what we are getting in return.

[terrell]

2 minutes ago, JTB said:

Whoa! So what we getting in back in such a deal????

id much rather keep collins over kuzma but if this is true I’m worried about what we are getting in return.

Probably something like Crowder, Saric expiring contracts , and picks..lol..

Hopefully we'd get Wizards 1st rdr in this scenario but I doubt it. ... More like the Suns 1st..

JC value just isnt there right now imo....

[JayBirdHawk]

If we end up with Crowder as our starting PF in a JC trade I'd be very disappointed.

 

[Spud2nique]

I like Crowder but better not be him alone. For JC, I’d prolly want:

Crowder 

Cam Johnson

AND

Monte Morris or The people champ (Will Barton) or a swap of Ahol for Delon back.

Or

More from Suns:

Torrey Craig and Damion Lee

 

Not really interested in picks but will take one of two if we get some needed vets in here. Guys like Crowder, Barton, Monte Morris and the others know how to win. We need that in the playoffs. 
 

If the deal makes sense, pull it, otherwise stand pat.

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

If we end up with Crowder as our starting PF in a JC trade I'd be very disappointed.

 

Ya he can’t be the starter. He HAS to be a backup no matter how much HE THINKS he’s a starter. Just put your hard hat on and be our 6th man…7th man..8th man. 

[Diesel]

 

 

 

[theheroatl]

1 hour ago, terrell said:

Is this guy legit?

 

He said Durant to Phoenix was a done deal so he isn’t legit.

[Diesel]

53 minutes ago, Diesel said:

 

 

 

If it were reliable information.... what makes this trade credible is that Johnson fits what we want on offense better than JC does right now.   PLUS.. there's a 10 million dollar rebate at the end of the year named Jae Crowder and Delon Wright is a wizard with the defense. 

The hard part for the Hawks is that they would have to resign Cam Johnson.   He's not worth the max.  He's injured now.   Maybe a reason why Phoenix wants to trade him and not deal with the headache of resigning him to an extension. 

The suns get Help now... and they probably hold on to Ayton with new ownership making overtures. 

The Wiz get Collins who besides a 7 foot Center would do well.   Collins/Porzingas would be pretty good, especially if they get a PG:  Scoot or Smith?

You allow Collins to play PNR and you put Porzingus mid post and let him do his catch and shoot.... with Beal as a scoring threat and a PG who can run the offense and they could be a team to think about. 

 

The thing that makes this a no go is I don't see us trading for a future star that needs to be extended.  Trading for Ayton is more likely because he's signed.   But Johnson's game fits what we have been doing with the PF.  But that's our game under a coach on the hot seat. 

 

 

 

 

 

[terrell]

10 minutes ago, Diesel said:

If it were reliable information.... what makes this trade credible is that Johnson fits what we want on offense better than JC does right now.   PLUS.. there's a 10 million dollar rebate at the end of the year named Jae Crowder and Delon Wright is a wizard with the defense. 

The hard part for the Hawks is that they would have to resign Cam Johnson.   He's not worth the max.  He's injured now.   Maybe a reason why Phoenix wants to trade him and not deal with the headache of resigning him to an extension. 

The suns get Help now... and they probably hold on to Ayton with new ownership making overtures. 

The Wiz get Collins who besides a 7 foot Center would do well.   Collins/Porzingas would be pretty good, especially if they get a PG:  Scoot or Smith?

You allow Collins to play PNR and you put Porzingus mid post and let him do his catch and shoot.... with Beal as a scoring threat and a PG who can run the offense and they could be a team to think about. 

 

The thing that makes this a no go is I don't see us trading for a future star that needs to be extended.  Trading for Ayton is more likely because he's signed.   But Johnson's game fits what we have been doing with the PF.  But that's our game under a coach on the hot seat. 

 

 

 

 

 

I dont believe they want to trade Cam Johnson tbh

Edited December 26, 2022 by terrell

[gurpilo]

I think I would do Collins and Capela for Ayton and Crowder and something else. If the Suns prefer Kuzma instead of Collins I am fine, no way I would do Collins for Crowder, makes no sense

[marco102]

Am I the only happy with John's play? 

Like I know his shooting has been bad from three, but his defensive impact on this team has been big.

He rebounds the ball well and he hustles and doesn't complain about not getting touches.

I'm just hoping his shooting returns its norm because his defensive improvement has been tremendous this season.

[Sothron]

4 hours ago, marco102 said:

Am I the only happy with John's play? 

Like I know his shooting has been bad from three, but his defensive impact on this team has been big.

He rebounds the ball well and he hustles and doesn't complain about not getting touches.

I'm just hoping his shooting returns its norm because his defensive improvement has been tremendous this season.

You are not the only one. This is the best defense he's played in his career this season. He has went from a bad defender as a rookie on up the scale to now he's a good defender. The only thing missing so far is his three point shot which should at some point come back to his career norms. He's shooting a career high at the FT line so it should track for his three point shooting to progress back up to the mean this season.

[Gray Mule]

Hawks may (I hope) keep Collins.  However, there are bench players who may not survive the trading deadline.  We were told to expect some "churning" of our bench players and it hasn't really happened except between Skyhawks and the home team.

[Diesel]

What happens when we get one more season of Pundits saying JC will be traded only to find that we don't trade him? Can we put a Cap on the JC trade talks?

Can the mention of JC getting traded receive immediate Boos and inbox litter.

How do you stop Pundits from making up stuff??