Hawks looking to move John Collins? This again?

[Vol4ever]

22 hours ago, Sothron said:

We as fans can say that. Telling billionaires to lose money is always a hard sell.

We literally took Trae over Luka based on projected income generated by both players. That's not conjecture it is literally why we did it.

And I remember he fit the culture better in atlanta............

[JTB]

8 hours ago, Wretch said:

While the defense is giving respect to our shooters, particularly Coby White covering AJ, Collins has space to work.  We should see more of this from JC, and earlier in the season we did.

He needs more touches, which is a challenge I'm sure...but regardless, this system is not utilizing our talent to its potential.

So I’m definitely one to point out Collins has no go to moves but this was a solid move by him. Unfortunately I don’t know if this could be an always thing or not.

Other times when JC has gotten the ball it’s just been face up jab step, jab step, and shoot.

 

I feel that even though Mcmillian offense is trash Collins has had plenty of opportunities to showcase his potential. I mean AJ is showing us what he can do offensively in the short window we’ve seen him. 
 

not trying to rain on Collins nice highlight I just don’t know if he can sustain making moves like this 

[Wretch]

9 hours ago, JTB said:

So I’m definitely one to point out Collins has no go to moves but this was a solid move by him. Unfortunately I don’t know if this could be an always thing or not.

Other times when JC has gotten the ball it’s just been face up jab step, jab step, and shoot.

 

I feel that even though Mcmillian offense is trash Collins has had plenty of opportunities to showcase his potential. I mean AJ is showing us what he can do offensively in the short window we’ve seen him. 
 

not trying to rain on Collins nice highlight I just don’t know if he can sustain making moves like this 

I'm someone who is reluctant to make predictions at the start of the season...let alone base my entire opinion of a player on one game and from a single play.  Obviously this isn't about one highlight.  We've been watching him for years and I've probably given JC more attention than any other Hawks player.  This is why my opinion of him changed from trade bait to my favorite player on the team.

Collins is not a Tier 1 scorer.  I am not suggesting that he could carry us offensively, neither do I expect us to defer to him over Trae/DJM in clutch situations.  That's more of a conversation stemming from 2+ seasons ago and even then, I didn't suggest that Collins was that kind of player.  So, let's just get that out of the way.  

My opinion is that he is a very good complimentary piece - which is what we need more so than another alpha scorer.  I don't have time to sew together a montage of highlights for JC, but there's a good sampling of what he is capable of from this game against Orlando earlier in the season:

Collins is capable of playing like that every game, but this offense with the addition of DJM is impacting him mightily.   We are stubbornly focused on midrange/PNR.  We're good at it, so the defense unsurprisingly...is locking the paint down.  That affects Collins the same as it does our back court - except he's not the same kind of ISO baller.  Ball movement and perimeter shooting will give space for JC to score in the post (as the highlight was showing), but this offense is laughably light on both.  He was already losing touches to Capela.  With the addition of DJM as an alpha mid-range scorer and Hunter now stepping up as the 3rd in line to "take a turn"...Collins does not have the space or the touches (which most players need to get in a rhythm) to be an effective/consistent 3rd option. 

As it was last year, his only real opportunity is spot up shooter.  This is where I have to concede because he is struggling mightily with his 3pt shot.  However, JC was shooting ~39% from long distance over a three year window.  That's a pretty strong indicator for a PF.

[Plainview1981]

On 12/21/2022 at 7:13 PM, Sothron said:

Detroit is offering the other Bogi plus two firsts for JC is what I am hearing. Suns are trying to send us Crowder for JC in another possible scenario with draft picks coming our way in a three team trade.

It definitely sounds like we are willing to take a way lesser talent that technically counts as a starting PF as long as we get draft picks back.

This is confirmed from source btw. Not just my speculation. 

The problem with this team getting draft picks is that they blow the picks anyway 

[Gray Mule]

On 12/21/2022 at 7:13 PM, Sothron said:

Detroit is offering the other Bogi plus two firsts for JC is what I am hearing. Suns are trying to send us Crowder for JC in another possible scenario with draft picks coming our way in a three team trade.

It definitely sounds like we are willing to take a way lesser talent that technically counts as a starting PF as long as we get draft picks back.

This is confirmed from source btw. Not just my speculation. 

IF.  Big IF.  If Atlanta moves JC and it is a three team trade, my hopes is that we get Mark Williams included in the deal.  I would take him instead of a couple of first round picks.  Yes, I believe he will be that good and he has the size we need.

Remember, the bird in hand is worth two in the brush?  Player in hand is worth more than 2 questionable future draft picks.

Thanks Sothron for the information!

[Diesel]

12 hours ago, JTB said:

So I’m definitely one to point out Collins has no go to moves but this was a solid move by him. Unfortunately I don’t know if this could be an always thing or not.

Other times when JC has gotten the ball it’s just been face up jab step, jab step, and shoot.

 

I feel that even though Mcmillian offense is trash Collins has had plenty of opportunities to showcase his potential. I mean AJ is showing us what he can do offensively in the short window we’ve seen him. 
 

not trying to rain on Collins nice highlight I just don’t know if he can sustain making moves like this 

Collins needs coaching.   AJ has been coached his whole life.   That's the difference.   AJ is miles farther than Hunter.  But Collins is a learner.  He has very good ability to learn and adapt.   His problem is no dribble.. yet.   Whereas AJ was probably coached to handle the ball. 

Collins wasn't one of these AAU standouts right?  He picked up the game late.   He's only 24-25 and still getting better.   We just don't run plays for him. 

 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, Wretch said:

I'm someone who is reluctant to make predictions at the start of the season...let alone base my entire opinion of a player on one game and from a single play.  Obviously this isn't about one highlight.  We've been watching him for years and I've probably given JC more attention than any other Hawks player.  This is why my opinion of him changed from trade bait to my favorite player on the team.

Collins is not a Tier 1 scorer.  I am not suggesting that he could carry us offensively, neither do I expect us to defer to him over Trae/DJM in clutch situations.  That's more of a conversation stemming from 2+ seasons ago and even then, I didn't suggest that Collins was that kind of player.  So, let's just get that out of the way.  

My opinion is that he is a very good complimentary piece - which is what we need more so than another alpha scorer.  I don't have time to sew together a montage of highlights for JC, but there's a good sampling of what he is capable of from this game against Orlando earlier in the season:

Collins is capable of playing like that every game, but this offense with the addition of DJM is impacting him mightily.   We are stubbornly focused on midrange/PNR.  We're good at it, so the defense unsurprisingly...is locking the paint down.  That affects Collins the same as it does our back court - except he's not the same kind of ISO baller.  Ball movement and perimeter shooting will give space for JC to score in the post (as the highlight was showing), but this offense is laughably light on both.  He was already losing touches to Capela.  With the addition of DJM as an alpha mid-range scorer and Hunter now stepping up as the 3rd in line to "take a turn"...Collins does not have the space or the touches (which most players need to get in a rhythm) to be an effective/consistent 3rd option. 

As it was last year, his only real opportunity is spot up shooter.  This is where I have to concede because he is struggling mightily with his 3pt shot.  However, JC was shooting ~39% from long distance over a three year window.  That's a pretty strong indicator for a PF.

I echo your sentiment.   Trae needs support players not competitive players.   Our offense needs focus and there ought to be designated plays for Collins.   He's a natural roller.  He has a good face up game and if he can develop more post up moves, he'd be golden.   His defense and rebounding often goes ignored... but he's a guy who goes out and get you what you need.   I hate that he had a few good years of shooting from outside.  I'd rather he master the inside game instead of the outside shot and in Nate's offense, there's no rooom for that. 

 

[Spud2nique]

3 hours ago, Wretch said:

I'm someone who is reluctant to make predictions at the start of the season..

Ya I’ve noticed..  go on…

 

3 hours ago, Wretch said:

what he is capable of

He’s capable of A LOT. He’s just not working on his skills it seems, something is missing. He can be a 20/10 guy but what’s not gonna get us winning.

 

3 hours ago, Wretch said:

but this offense is laughably light on both. 

Lloyd was a high school coach.

Nate I going through the motions as a coach to hit the maximum amount of wins and climb in the ranks.

Id rather we get a coach first before moving players. 

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, Gray Mule said:

my hopes is that we get Mark Williams included in the deal.

 Gramps stickin with his boys! Love it! Hey gramps, what do you think of the Hali vs Wally deal goin on? 

[Spud2nique]

33 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Collins needs coaching.   

THIS.

I don’t know who his high school coach was but after that..

DANNY MANNING - TRASH (player and coach; just a no muscle walking overrated basketball person) 

Lloyd- Didn’t know anything about coaching in a game; great working with dudes one on one hands on but not the one.

Nate- His in game adjustments suck, his pregame plan sucks, he didn’t do anything as a coach anywhere. Blazers.. Indy..

 

[Spud2nique]

32 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Nate's offense

Nate has an offense?  Where? Show me? He just gives out chainz and gives postgame speeches that wouldn’t fire anybody up. 

[Gray Mule]

4 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Nate has an offense?  Where? Show me? He just gives out chainz and gives postgame speeches that wouldn’t fire anybody up. 

Nate:  Here's the ball.  There is the goal.  Go, do it!

[Spud2nique]

22 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

Nate:  Here's the ball.  There is the goal.  Go, do it!

[Wretch]

44 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

He’s capable of A LOT. He’s just not working on his skills it seems, something is missing. He can be a 20/10 guy but what’s not gonna get us winning.

He's definitely a 20/10...easily if he were the primary roll man with a  stretch 5.  Though, I ~~REALLY~~ love Capela as well so I don't want to dig up the 4/5 fit conversation.  It is what it is, though we did have a successful post season with it so...*shrug*

I 100% disagree that he hasn't worked on his skills.  He developed that 3 point shot, he has worked on his footwork (last year), and he's added a turnaround jumper.  We don't see the latter two things often because "The Offense^TM" JC recognized that he needed to get better at these things and if you go looking through his highlights, you'll see it's there.  I see the work he put in surface every game...just not enough of it.  Even last year he was doing some impressive things - notably I recall a few face up, dribble penetrations from the top of the key.

He's just not going to be Kevin Garnett or Chris Webber with it, which again...isn't really what we need.

[Spud2nique]

33 minutes ago, Wretch said:

He developed that 3 point shot,

It’s gotten worse though, isn’t he shooting below 30% from deep?

 

34 minutes ago, Wretch said:

We don't see the latter two things often because "The Offense^TM"

Nate yes..

[Wretch]

14 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

It’s gotten worse though, isn’t he shooting below 30% from deep?

~20% last I checked.  He's gone from one of the best 3pt shooting bigs to a flat out horrible shooter overnight.  Considering he posted those numbers over a 3 year period, that's too much of a drop to put this on his efficiency simply trending down.  Something's up and I expect him to regain his form eventually.  Especially considering that he started the season shooting ~50%.

[Spud2nique]

4 minutes ago, Wretch said:

Something's up

Finger?

[AHF]

10 minutes ago, Wretch said:

~20% last I checked.  He's gone from one of the best 3pt shooting bigs to a flat out horrible shooter overnight.  Considering he posted those numbers over a 3 year period, that's too much of a drop to put this on his efficiency simply trending down.  Something's up and I expect him to regain his form eventually.  Especially considering that he started the season shooting ~50%.

My worry is his finger is going to drag his numbers way down all year.  Also worried whether there are long-term implications for him from doing permanent damage to his finger.  (I don't know that there is any long-term or permanent damage - just worry it could be the case).  That is me speaking from ignorance but it was my worry before all the season and has been all year.  That would be a reason to believe that he can't replicate his historical numbers anymore.  I hope that isn't the case.

[macdaddy]

On 12/22/2022 at 10:59 AM, kg01 said:

Yes, I just hadn't seen that as a rumor.

Eta. Just to be extra clear, you mean Collins for the other Bogdanovic right?  Not the super tall guy that's friends with Tobias Harris? 

Well i don't know if it's a real rumor speculation because Detroit has been mentioned.  

[Wretch]

20 minutes ago, AHF said:

My worry is his finger is going to drag his numbers way down all year.  Also worried whether there are long-term implications for him from doing permanent damage to his finger.  (I don't know that there is any long-term or permanent damage - just worry it could be the case).  That is me speaking from ignorance but it was my worry before all the season and has been all year.  That would be a reason to believe that he can't replicate his historical numbers anymore.  I hope that isn't the case.

Same...  Has he mentioned anything about his hand?  I don't recall anything and I'd think someone would have asked him about his shooting slump at a minimum.  The one encouraging thing to me is how hot he was to start the season...then again, he could have aggravated it the longer the season has gone on.  Definitely worth keeping an eye on.