Hawks looking to move John Collins? This again?

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, Sothron said:

I don't know where else to put this. Our other two insiders have been really quiet this season.

Teams are interested in Bogi now. The medical reports seem to show that Bogi's knee issue is finally truly fixed and teams are hoping we keep losing to force Travis to trade off pieces. The most wanted available Hawks are JC and Bogi. There's another dark horse player on the roster that is a regular rotation player I can't mention but is being talked about in trades although the price won't be cheap.

The Utah trade offer has been pulled from Utah due to Lauri's play this season but it could be revisited again. 

 

I still have concerns listening to Bogi talk about his off day regimen.  However, if he can keep it up.. Good.  I think he's the piece we need when everybody gets back..

[terrell]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

So is this what you're talking about??

You still playing dumb I see. Feel free to block me... smh

Edited December 18, 2022 by terrell

[RedDawg#8]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

I still have concerns listening to Bogi talk about his off day regimen.  However, if he can keep it up.. Good.  I think he's the piece we need when everybody gets back..

When we get more bodies back, Im cool with Bogi taking some load management games against lesser opponents. A healthy Bogi is a different animal. 

[terrell]

1 hour ago, RedDawg#8 said:

When we get more bodies back, Im cool with Bogi taking some load management games against lesser opponents. A healthy Bogi is a different animal. 

Lesser opponents like Rockets, Magic, or OKC?

[RedDawg#8]

26 minutes ago, terrell said:

Lesser opponents like Rockets, Magic, or OKC?

……sigh….

yes

[JayBirdHawk]

Who told the lie that JC would sit out until traded? 

[bleachkit]

On 12/16/2022 at 3:51 PM, Sothron said:

I have said it before and I will say it again: only trade JC if you are bringing in a legit star back. And we know that's not going to happen. If they do trade him it will be to give them more room under the LT.

That Lauri plus two picks for JC trade is one I fear the Hawks would do when JC is healthy again. Only question is with how Lauri is playing now would the Jazz want to do it.

You wouldn't take the Lauri trade? You cant possibly be serious. Lauri's stat line is one of the best among bigs in the NBA. 22 points. 8 rebounds, on 52% from the field and 42% from three. That's elite efficiency. JC's numbers have been declining for years. This year he averaging a middling 12.7 points per game. I dont know what superstar you have in mind. but you take the Lauri trade all day every day. It aint 2019. 

[Sothron]

58 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

You wouldn't take the Lauri trade? You cant possibly be serious. Lauri's stat line is one of the best among bigs in the NBA. 22 points. 8 rebounds, on 52% from the field and 42% from three. That's elite efficiency. JC's numbers have been declining for years. This year he averaging a middling 12.7 points per game. I dont know what superstar you have in mind. but you take the Lauri trade all day every day. It aint 2019. 

JC is a much better defensive player than Lauri. Lauri is their featured player on offense. JC is lucky to get any shots with our lack of an actual offense and two guys that just will shoot it. 

I would want a true superstar back in a deal for JC. Like package him and Hunter or OO together. Make it a real upgrade. Lauri is a good one way player having a career year on a team that should be tanking. If we made that exact trade I'd support Lauri like I do all Hawks but yes, I do think it would be a downgrade. 

Imagine the reaction when Lauri stands there, doesn't get the ball, doesn't play defense that well and then what would happen on these boards. Jc is only averaging 12.7 points because he's getting hardly any shots. Do you really think Lauri would magically get as many shots and points as he's getting in Utah?

[AHF]

20 minutes ago, Sothron said:

JC is a much better defensive player than Lauri. Lauri is their featured player on offense. JC is lucky to get any shots with our lack of an actual offense and two guys that just will shoot it. 

I would want a true superstar back in a deal for JC. Like package him and Hunter or OO together. Make it a real upgrade. Lauri is a good one way player having a career year on a team that should be tanking. If we made that exact trade I'd support Lauri like I do all Hawks but yes, I do think it would be a downgrade. 

Imagine the reaction when Lauri stands there, doesn't get the ball, doesn't play defense that well and then what would happen on these boards. Jc is only averaging 12.7 points because he's getting hardly any shots. Do you really think Lauri would magically get as many shots and points as he's getting in Utah?

I agree there is real risk with Lauri given how much better he has been this season than in the past.  If the offer is a straight up JC for Lauri deal, I can see reasonable minds falling on both sides of that.  (I would want some sweetner given their career to date but I can totally see where someone would feel like we were getting the better end of the deal where they are focused on this season and believe the PF stretching the floor is a key component of our offense.)

But I don't follow the idea of wanting a "true superstar" back in a deal for JC.  JC is not a star let alone a superstar and will never command a trade for Embiid, Doncic, or other superstars.  Not even in the same ballpark.  IMO, he wouldn't even be a consideration at this point for guys like Paskal Siakam who clearly aren't superstars but are very good.  Once there was a legit debate there but JC has gotten less marketable over the last couple of years and Siakam has moved the opposite direction.  That may not be fair since CC and OO stymie JC's offensive potential due to their own limitations and JC has legitimately improved on defense but he is nice piece not a must have player at this stage of his career, imo.  He has 8 single digit scoring games and 9 games with 5 or fewer rebounds over his 23 games this season.  That is basically 1/3 of his games.  Too many for any GM to even consider dealing a "true superstar" for him.  

If he gets dealt in a one for one trade, I think it will be someone who can be a standout on a team deprived of premium talent but probably is a role player (which does not mean non-starter) on a contender (because that is who JC is).  

[macdaddy]

19 minutes ago, Sothron said:

JC is a much better defensive player than Lauri. Lauri is their featured player on offense. JC is lucky to get any shots with our lack of an actual offense and two guys that just will shoot it. 

I would want a true superstar back in a deal for JC. Like package him and Hunter or OO together. Make it a real upgrade. Lauri is a good one way player having a career year on a team that should be tanking. If we made that exact trade I'd support Lauri like I do all Hawks but yes, I do think it would be a downgrade. 

Imagine the reaction when Lauri stands there, doesn't get the ball, doesn't play defense that well and then what would happen on these boards. Jc is only averaging 12.7 points because he's getting hardly any shots. Do you really think Lauri would magically get as many shots and points as he's getting in Utah?

Lauri is having a good year but it's not a crazy outlier for his career really.   His shooting percentages are really good and overall his per36 is a bit better than it has been.  

I say this as a huge JC fan and I don't want him traded but Lauri is a much better offensive player than JC.  

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

Lauri is having a good year but it's not a crazy outlier for his career really.   His shooting percentages are really good and overall his per36 is a bit better than it has been.  

I say this as a huge JC fan and I don't want him traded but Lauri is a much better offensive player than JC.  

JC’s offensive skills are limited. If I’m him I become the Dennis Rodman and straight grab rebounds and play D like I’m possessed. Take the chances on O but his offensive skills are plateauing big time if they haven’t already. 
 

JC needs to be our glue guy. His offense is really predictable and easy for opponents to stop.

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Lauri is having a good year but it's not a crazy outlier for his career really.   His shooting percentages are really good and overall his per36 is a bit better than it has been.  

I say this as a huge JC fan and I don't want him traded but Lauri is a much better offensive player than JC.  

Career TS%: .580% TS%

Career Best Before this Season:  .619% TS%

This Season:  .659% TS%

 

Career FG%:  .451% FG% 

Career Best Before this Season:  .480% FG%

This Season:  .521% FG%

His shooting efficiency is a crazy outlier imo.  (Same with career 3pt% 37.0%; this season 42.1% but at least he has been close before).

 

On a per minute basis, this season is his:

Career high for PP36

Career high for AP36

Career high for BP36

Best Season in 4 Years in RP36

 

I'd definitely call this season an outlier (or product of small sample size if he will end the year closer to his norms).

[Sothron]

9 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Lauri is having a good year but it's not a crazy outlier for his career really.   His shooting percentages are really good and overall his per36 is a bit better than it has been.  

I say this as a huge JC fan and I don't want him traded but Lauri is a much better offensive player than JC.  

Look at the numbers. This is easily an outlier season for him. It is the first time he's ever been used as a primary or even secondary option on offense. His numbers reflect that. He's also simply playing better than ever before. I don't hate the guy. I actually like the guy. I wish he gave more on defense. 

Maybe this is just me but I want two way players and value that over one way players. JC is a two way player. He's having his worst three point shooting season but that's the only negative to his game this season. His defense has been really good. He's still scoring and hitting free throws extremely well. He gets no shots so ofc his scoring average will drop.

Lauri is on a perfect team for him. He's the number one guy with a very smart offensive coach that is using him very well. Kudos to Lauri. If we trade JC for him I will support Lauri on here. I just know after two games when he's not getting any shot attempts up and his defense is shown as being bad the people on here will go ballistic.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Sothron said:

Look at the numbers. This is easily an outlier season for him. It is the first time he's ever been used as a primary or even secondary option on offense. His numbers reflect that. He's also simply playing better than ever before. I don't hate the guy. I actually like the guy. I wish he gave more on defense. 

Agree this season is an outlier and his just playing better than ever.  I will point out in his defense that he was the #2 scorer in Chicago in the 2018-19 and 2019-20 seasons.  

[macdaddy]

In his 25 year old season Lauri jumps his shooting % nicely as the #1 option and we call it an outlier yet we see every day posts that Hunter and JC are going to 'put it together' or 'get more shots' and be all stars one day.  

I'm not even that big a fan of Lauri but the guy has been steadily improving on offense every year and is hitting his prime.  His % won't hold for the whole season but it's not like this is some kind of crazy thing out of the blue.  This is kind of what you'd expect if you run the offense through him.   More assists, more free throws.  He's just delivered on the responsibility placed on him.   But he has been a really good offensive player for a while. 

[AHF]

4 hours ago, macdaddy said:

In his 25 year old season Lauri jumps his shooting % nicely as the #1 option and we call it an outlier yet we see every day posts that Hunter and JC are going to 'put it together' or 'get more shots' and be all stars one day.  

I'm not even that big a fan of Lauri but the guy has been steadily improving on offense every year and is hitting his prime.  His % won't hold for the whole season but it's not like this is some kind of crazy thing out of the blue.  This is kind of what you'd expect if you run the offense through him.   More assists, more free throws.  He's just delivered on the responsibility placed on him.   But he has been a really good offensive player for a while. 

I'm not predicting that either Hunter or JC will be All-Stars.  JC is a strange guy to lump with Hunter because he has demonstrably "done it before" and the one thing we've all been crying out to see JC put together is 3pt shot which he hit at a better % than Lauri over the last 3 years.

Hunter is someone I'll grant to a point.  I don't have the high expectations that Peo does for him where he will one day be considered one of the best few players at his position.  Frankly, I don't think most of the Squawk actually has that kind of expectation for him.  But I do hope that Hunter improves and think our GM banked on improvement when he offered that new contract.  

For Lauri, I think the most likely scenario is that he both has legitimately improved his skills and that this is driving better numbers AND that his shooting %s are not sustainable and have inflated his numbers (think Bogi's hot streak two years ago for another Hawk who I "called out" as having shown us numbers that we couldn't rely on* going forward).  

Lauri's big deficiency is that he isn't a great rebounder and he isn't a particularly good defender.  He also isn't much of a passer/playmaker.  What he does is score buckets and I'm willing to say he would do a better job of that here than JC even though I do think he wouldn't get nearly as many FGA here as he does in Utah.  So when I compare JC and Lauri, it is thinking about how Lauri would look in a smaller role here in Atlanta and how that would affect the offense and defense while he is on the floor.

 

* - Just to be clear, the only concern I have as far as whether we can rely on Bogi as an important wing in our rotation is his health.  What I don't think we can rely on him for is to produce the kind of scoring efficiency he did during that 2 month period where he was en fuego.  That just isn't sustainable.  But he remains an extremely important piece of the puzzle for this team.

[Plainview1981]

Collins was never a star. He had great numbers for a couple of years because he was on a team with few options.

He is a 12/7 player on a team with a number of other scoring options. His numbers will probably start leveling off now... I think he stays at about 12/7 for most of his career now.

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, Plainview1981 said:

Collins was never a star. He had great numbers for a couple of years because he was on a team with few options.

He is a 12/7 player on a team with a number of other scoring options. His numbers will probably start leveling off now... I think he stays at about 12/7 for most of his career now.

Chris Bosh went from a 24/10 player to a 18/8 player and then to a 16/7 player. 

Kevin Love went from a 26/12 player to a 16/8 player... 

Changing dynamics, options and offenses can change your statline but I don't think it makes you a bad player. 

 

[JTB]

On 12/17/2022 at 2:57 PM, Sothron said:

I don't know where else to put this. Our other two insiders have been really quiet this season.

Teams are interested in Bogi now. The medical reports seem to show that Bogi's knee issue is finally truly fixed and teams are hoping we keep losing to force Travis to trade off pieces. The most wanted available Hawks are JC and Bogi. There's another dark horse player on the roster that is a regular rotation player I can't mention but is being talked about in trades although the price won't be cheap.

The Utah trade offer has been pulled from Utah due to Lauri's play this season but it could be revisited again. 

 

That other “rotation player” is probably Capela if I had to guess since he’s playing absolutely fantastic. Capela should not be even available though.

[JTB]

I think Lauri is hands down a better offensive player than Collins. It’s not just him being a better shooter but for a 7 footer he can actually put the ball on the floor and get a shot off majority of the time.

so when those of you say Lauri will just be standing there like Collins for one you’re not taking Lauris gravitational pull into consideration because no opponent is allowing him to stand out on the perimeter  alone like they now doing JC. Unfortunately Collins has no kind of spacing pull whatsoever. It’s gotten to a point that opponents are daring Collins to shoot it.

 

Personally i believe Lauri is a huge upgrade offensively because of what he offers in our current starting lineup. I’d love to see Trae and Murray play with a 7 foot 3pt shooter!

 

If Hunter can avg 15 pts with Trae and Murray out there I don’t see why anyone would think Lauri can’t avg that if not more. Collins HAS to be setup to score the majority of his points. Hunters handles have improved a bit this season and it’s why he’s able to do a bit more offensively this year.

 

The issue with Lauri is the same one with Bogi and Trae …and where Collins is clearly better among the two which is defense. If Lauri doesn’t play well offensively just like bogi , just like Trae…he offers nothing defensively. That part I will give Collins all day! JC has improved so much defensively that he actually has something he can fall back on if his offense is off and that’s what he’s been doing all season long.