Official Game Thread: Bucks at Hawks

[marco102]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Not true.  We're #17 - 1st quarter.

#23 - 4th quarter.

It's interesting.   We're actually better this year in 4th quarter differential than we were last year. 

 

And we were a play-in team last year.  Nothing about having a negative poiint differential in the first and 4th quarter is good for us. 

They need to fix it. I know injuries and blah blah blah, but it needs to be fixed. 

If not, Tank for Wemby or Maxwell Lewis.

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

No Diesel . . the loss is predicated that we went ISO at the end of the game again, and didn't execute.   

If we could have stopped Jrue Holiday, that would not have mattered.

If we could have grabbed offensive rebounds... that would not have mattered. 

Do you know how deflating it was to see us play good defense... got them to miss and They get the rebound, throw it out to Carter or whoever for a wide open bang 3.

We couldn't stop Holiday, we couldn't rebound.   That's your ball game.  You could have run any fancy ball movement set that you wanted to run.  If we can't stop them from scoring on the other end... it's just a matter of time. 

 

The rebounds were 62 to 46....  They had 16 more rebounds than us.   They got 14 offensive rebounds...  They should have beaten us by 30.

 

[JeffS17]

3 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

What I liked about Murray was his driving. He has not been doing that here.  I posted a start regarding his driving last year vs this year. It's significantly down. Additionally, he's not rebounding like he did in SAS.

I was in the camp that the Murray trade was positive.  I don't think we robbed SA or anything like that, but I thought it would be a positive direction for the team.  BUT... that was all because my assumption was that Murray was going to be splitting ball handling, Trae could help space the floor and move off ball, and our offense would be far more dynamic.  But what we're actually getting is no movement, no creativity, and no synergy out of their skillset.  It's literally pickup ball out there, which means Trae still needs the ball in his hands near 100% of the time ...and now instead of having Heurter or Bogi out there spacing the floor, we have Murray who teams sag off of and clog the lane where Trae needs to operate in the PnR.  Trae spent the entire summer talking about playing off ball, how he's good at it and can play off ball, etc. etc.  The problem is clearly our coaching and "scheme" if you can call what we're doing a scheme.  I do not think Murray deserves a max contract right now, but I also do not want to see him off the team before we get a better coach that can utilize our talent.

Right now, with how our guards are being utilized, we could have just paid Delon Wright and started him alongside Trae and been in the same spot we're in today with 3 more picks in our pocket.  There has to be a shakeup in roster or coaching soon because what we're getting on the court is not good.  It's not even fun to watch.

[Wretch]

Hold on.  Can ya'll rewind a little bit.  I need to grab my notepad...

*clicks pen*

Ok.  Soooo....are we officially hating Dejounte now or is this like, spur of the moment/knee jerk hating?

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, marco102 said:

They need to fix it. I know injuries and blah blah blah, but it needs to be fixed. 

If you can say that.. then you don't know.

Over the last 3 games, our rebounding rate (%) is 45%.   Last year it was 50.1%   Over the last 3 games we are the second worst rebounding team... that's mainly because Clint has been out.   For the season we're 48.3%.  So we see the fall off in rebounding from last year.   Rebounds are possessions.  For you to Blah blah blah.. not having Clint means that you really don't understand...

 

 

[marco102]

1 minute ago, Wretch said:

Hold on.  Can ya'll rewind a little bit.  I need to grab my notepad...

*clicks pen*

Ok.  Soooo....are we officially hating Dejounte now or is this like, spur of the moment/knee jerk hating?

I don't think people are hating.  @JayBirdHawk and @JeffS17 are asking valid questions about why he isn't doing certain things here that he was doing last year and how he's been utilized.

I'm not wanting to trade him or anything. I just think he works better in a ball movement system and with floor spacers.

[marco102]

Just now, Diesel said:

If you can say that.. then you don't know.

Over the last 3 games, our rebounding rate (%) is 45%.   Last year it was 50.1%   Over the last 3 games we are the second worst rebounding team... that's mainly because Clint has been out.   For the season we're 48.3%.  So we see the fall off in rebounding from last year.   Rebounds are possessions.  For you to Blah blah blah.. not having Clint means that you really don't understand...

 

 

I'm not talking about rebounding. I'm talking about the first and fourth quarter problems.

Yeah, Clint will help, but at certain point we are what our records say we are.  A lottery team.  There's no sugar coating that.  Other teams are missing players and still perform well. We don't do that.  Why? 

[JeffS17]

4 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I'm not talking about rebounding. I'm talking about the first and fourth quarter problems.

Yeah, Clint will help, but at certain point we are what our records say we are.  A lottery team.  There's no sugar coating that.  Other teams are missing players and still perform well. We don't do that.  Why? 

smh you didn't take sturts 75 game challenge?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I was in the camp that the Murray trade was positive.  I don't think we robbed SA or anything like that, but I thought it would be a positive direction for the team.  BUT... that was all because my assumption was that Murray was going to be splitting ball handling, Trae could help space the floor and move off ball, and our offense would be far more dynamic.  But what we're actually getting is no movement, no creativity, and no synergy out of their skillset.  It's literally pickup ball out there, which means Trae still needs the ball in his hands near 100% of the time ...and now instead of having Heurter or Bogi out there spacing the floor, we have Murray who teams sag off of and clog the lane where Trae needs to operate in the PnR.  Trae spent the entire summer talking about playing off ball, how he's good at it and can play off ball, etc. etc.  The problem is clearly our coaching and "scheme" if you can call what we're doing a scheme.  I do not think Murray deserves a max contract right now, but I also do not want to see him off the team before we get a better coach that can utilize our talent.

Right now, with how our guards are being utilized, we could have just paid Delon Wright and started him alongside Trae and been in the same spot we're in today with 3 more picks in our pocket.  There has to be a shakeup in roster or coaching soon because what we're getting on the court is not good.  It's not even fun to watch.

 

I thought about 4 weeks ago, a mini-power struggle was going on between Trae and Dejounte.  Maybe not in Trae's eyes, but definitely in Dejounte's eyes.  What Dejounte needs to do, is understand his role.  Trae is the lead guard.  He is the secondary guard.  We need Dejounte to lock in defensively, and not let guys like Jrue Holiday go off for 27 points. 

Sometimes we need his scoring, and if he has it going, by all means keep shooting the ball.  But if we need him to make the hockey assist to get it to a better shooter or a man closer to the rim, do that too.

As much as people love to rag on Trae, Dejounte does not have Trae's offensive skill set.  If that midrange jumper isn't falling, it's almost if his entire offensive game is null and void.  Until he becomes willing to take a hit and get to the line, he's going to be limited offensively.  So he needs to be that all-around guard that can be the glue to this team.

[Wretch]

3 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I don't think people are hating.  @JayBirdHawk and @JeffS17 are asking valid questions about why he isn't doing certain things here that he was doing last year and how he's been utilized.

I'm not wanting to trade him or anything. I just think he works better in a ball movement system and with floor spacers.

Well, I didn't namedrop anybody - and if I did, it wouldn't have been either of them.  I didn't see any comments from @JeffS17 and @JayBirdHawk is not prone to knee jerking. In any case, this was more of a general question since I haven't read all 14 pages of the game thread today...and I wanted to hear people put their honest opinions out there.

(I already know the answers to those valid questions and have probably repeated myself 100x on it BTW)

[TheNorthCydeRises]

My all-star selection for tonight

 

 

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I was in the camp that the Murray trade was positive.  I don't think we robbed SA or anything like that, but I thought it would be a positive direction for the team.  BUT... that was all because my assumption was that Murray was going to be splitting ball handling, Trae could help space the floor and move off ball, and our offense would be far more dynamic.  But what we're actually getting is no movement, no creativity, and no synergy out of their skillset.  It's literally pickup ball out there, which means Trae still needs the ball in his hands near 100% of the time ...and now instead of having Heurter or Bogi out there spacing the floor, we have Murray who teams sag off of and clog the lane where Trae needs to operate in the PnR.  Trae spent the entire summer talking about playing off ball, how he's good at it and can play off ball, etc. etc.  The problem is clearly our coaching and "scheme" if you can call what we're doing a scheme.  I do not think Murray deserves a max contract right now, but I also do not want to see him off the team before we get a better coach that can utilize our talent.

Right now, with how our guards are being utilized, we could have just paid Delon Wright and started him alongside Trae and been in the same spot we're in today with 3 more picks in our pocket.  There has to be a shakeup in roster or coaching soon because what we're getting on the court is not good.  It's not even fun to watch.

My original feel about DJM... is that we got him for the cheap.  I know a lot of you point to the picks.. because we are lottery people.. but 

1.  We are out of the phase where we're looking for draft picks to make our team.. or so I thought. 

2.  Most of those picks have protections on them so we're not totally out of anything. 

 

Still.   We needed somebody who can handle the ball handling duties and be on court with Trae.

 I don't think anybody is upset with Murray's defense.  If you are say so.  He plays good defense and he is a smart defender.. not reactionary. 

I think the problem has been his integration into the offense.   I don't think this is necessarily about Trae.  I think it's about how we play.   To me.. he seems to be at his best in transition.  He comes from a system that makes you make a decision on what you will do with the ball within 3 seconds.   That's what they do in San Anton...  Well, you put him in our system...  to him.. he gets the ball and basically he's holding it.   I don't think he's that kind of PG.   AND.. He's not a SG.   Neither is Trae.

Trae can hit open shots.   But Trae is best with the ball in his hand.  This is why DJM can play with Trae (on paper).. DJM doesn't want to hold the ball too long, Trae is a mistro.   But because DJM is not a SG... he still has to figure out how to work when he has the ball. i.e. finding others.    Hard to do when the others are not moving.   And that's where we are.  This is why I continue to say bring in D'Antoni.  Why.. he has experience conquering this problem.   This is Nash/Barbosa all over.   Maybe a bit like Harden/CP3.  either way, He made it work... and part of making it work is knowing what to do with everybody else.    Nate is a good coach.  Just not an effective tactician when the skillsets are mixed. 

 

 

[Wretch]

13 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I was in the camp that the Murray trade was positive.  I don't think we robbed SA or anything like that, but I thought it would be a positive direction for the team.  BUT... that was all because my assumption was that Murray was going to be splitting ball handling, Trae could help space the floor and move off ball, and our offense would be far more dynamic.  But what we're actually getting is no movement, no creativity, and no synergy out of their skillset.  It's literally pickup ball out there, which means Trae still needs the ball in his hands near 100% of the time ...and now instead of having Heurter or Bogi out there spacing the floor, we have Murray who teams sag off of and clog the lane where Trae needs to operate in the PnR.  Trae spent the entire summer talking about playing off ball, how he's good at it and can play off ball, etc. etc.  The problem is clearly our coaching and "scheme" if you can call what we're doing a scheme.  I do not think Murray deserves a max contract right now, but I also do not want to see him off the team before we get a better coach that can utilize our talent.

Right now, with how our guards are being utilized, we could have just paid Delon Wright and started him alongside Trae and been in the same spot we're in today with 3 more picks in our pocket.  There has to be a shakeup in roster or coaching soon because what we're getting on the court is not good.  It's not even fun to watch.

...and @JTB, this is about ~90% my opinion as well BTW.

[Diesel]

I don't think we will have a coaching change before the end of the season.   It's going to put Traeneem in the arduous position of having to decide on DJM's contract.  If Nate doesn't come up with better schemes for DJM, then we won't know how good he can be.    We're too proud to trade DJM by Feb 9.   And I don't think anybody can really predict how DJM would be under a different coach. 

We are just in the thick of it. 

 

[marco102]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I don't think we will have a coaching change before the end of the season.   It's going to put Traeneem in the arduous position of having to decide on DJM's contract.  If Nate doesn't come up with better schemes for DJM, then we won't know how good he can be.    We're too proud to trade DJM by Feb 9.   And I don't think anybody can really predict how DJM would be under a different coach. 

We are just in the thick of it. 

 

Dejounte isn't a free agent until next year. He's not going to sign an extension this year, because it's not enough money for they type of starter he is.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

My original feel about DJM... is that we got him for the cheap.  I know a lot of you point to the picks.. because we are lottery people.. but 

1.  We are out of the phase where we're looking for draft picks to make our team.. or so I thought. 

2.  Most of those picks have protections on them so we're not totally out of anything. 

 

Still.   We needed somebody who can handle the ball handling duties and be on court with Trae.

 I don't think anybody is upset with Murray's defense.  If you are say so.  He plays good defense and he is a smart defender.. not reactionary. 

I think the problem has been his integration into the offense.   I don't think this is necessarily about Trae.  I think it's about how we play.   To me.. he seems to be at his best in transition.  He comes from a system that makes you make a decision on what you will do with the ball within 3 seconds.   That's what they do in San Anton...  Well, you put him in our system...  to him.. he gets the ball and basically he's holding it.   I don't think he's that kind of PG.   AND.. He's not a SG.   Neither is Trae.

Trae can hit open shots.   But Trae is best with the ball in his hand.  This is why DJM can play with Trae (on paper).. DJM doesn't want to hold the ball too long, Trae is a mistro.   But because DJM is not a SG... he still has to figure out how to work when he has the ball. i.e. finding others.    Hard to do when the others are not moving.   And that's where we are.  This is why I continue to say bring in D'Antoni.  Why.. he has experience conquering this problem.   This is Nash/Barbosa all over.   Maybe a bit like Harden/CP3.  either way, He made it work... and part of making it work is knowing what to do with everybody else.    Nate is a good coach.  Just not an effective tactician when the skillsets are mixed. 

 

 

 

Murray's defense is overrated.  Murray makes "stat" defensive plays, in terms of deflections and steals.  But he actually doesn't guard his man all that well.   Matter of fact, his defensive dashboard is actually alarming.

Good defense when it comes to defending 3s, but he gets blown past and let people into the paint for points.

A ( - ) differential is good.   Overall, his Defended FG% is 3% higher than normal.

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Murray's defense is overrated.  Murray makes "stat" defensive plays, in terms of deflections and steals.  But he actually doesn't guard his man all that well.   Matter of fact, his defensive dashboard is actually alarming.

Good defense when it comes to defending 3s, but he gets blown past and let people into the paint for points.

A ( - ) differential is good.   Overall, his Defended FG% is 3% higher than normal.

Well, i don't suppose he would be so good in less than 6 feet..   The other problem is we play a lot of zone. how does that factor ?

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

My all-star selection for tonight

 

 

Tank was on the ballot?  

How bout this man? Hurry up DF let’s go!!!! (Not Danny Ferry )

 

 

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

My all-star selection for tonight

 

 

We have 5/10 same players.

[Spud2nique]

OT:

Hubie Brown is awesome . I remember about 33 or so years ago watching him do a CBS Xmas day game of the Cavs at the Hawks. 
 

I thought he was an older guy then. I don’t know how old he is but he looks great and his mind is still very sharp. Hubie!!!!