The Official NBASupes, Sothron, and theCampster Insider Thread - NBA 2022-23 Season

[LucastheThird]

33 minutes ago, marco102 said:

John took on that role while Client has been out.  That's why the defense went to hell when John was in foul trouble all those games. 

OO has a lot of talent on the defensive end, but the leap John has made as a team defender and communicator makes him  a better player on both ends right now. 

And I fully believe that makes it easier to trade Clint who is seen as a better prospect across the league. JC stepping up his overall and team defense is key to him staying and us trading Clint for Ayton. 

[Diesel]

31 minutes ago, LucastheThird said:

And I fully believe that makes it easier to trade Clint who is seen as a better prospect across the league. JC stepping up his overall and team defense is key to him staying and us trading Clint for Ayton. 

Are you losing your mind???  Clint is the defensive anchor.  The Lakers walked down the lane and scored at will because as much as I love JC and OO, the Lakers knew that they couldn't defend a direct attack without fouling.  Capela can.  This is why I'm not so hot on trading Capela for Ayton.   They give Ayton the same treatment.   They rush him.  He's a stat man.. you look at the stats and he may have 14 and 18.. but when you watch the game, the other team scores most of their points going directly at him.   Ayton Makes Bismack look like Dikembe when he hits the court. 

 

 

 

[BangHolman]

14 hours ago, MarylandHawk said:

At some point you have to make room for OO’s growth. He was a 6th overall pick and his game fits better next to Ayton than it does Clint or John. Not to mention this would clear space to resign Murray when Crowder’s salary comes off the books.  Again, not saying this is what I want, but it has to be something the Hawks have to consider.  To me, the only thing that kills a deal like this is Ayton’s “make up” Can him and Trae build a relationship and can he be trusted in the locker room. If the answer is no, then keep it moving. 

OO has to do more to develop his game to force that kind of trade. I don't care if he was the 6th pick or not. I would do the Ayton deal, but it's not because of where we drafted OO.

[JeffS17]

56 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Are you losing your mind???  Clint is the defensive anchor.  The Lakers walked down the lane and scored at will because as much as I love JC and OO, the Lakers knew that they couldn't defend a direct attack without fouling.  Capela can.  This is why I'm not so hot on trading Capela for Ayton.   They give Ayton the same treatment.   They rush him.  He's a stat man.. you look at the stats and he may have 14 and 18.. but when you watch the game, the other team scores most of their points going directly at him.   Ayton Makes Bismack look like Dikembe when he hits the court. 

 

 

 

Agreed.  I actually would rather bet on OO straight up than Ayton, and taking into consideration their salaries, OO all day long for me.  Ayton is the definition of fools gold -- stuffs the box score with very little impact on winning.  He consistently has some of the worst on/off for the Suns, offensively and defensively, which to me corroborates what I see and is reported of him:  he's not a winner.  He's relatively selfish, does not make winning plays, and does not play winning team basketball.  McGee was twice the defender Ayton was for the Suns last year, and he had higher offensive rating because of the extra effort he puts in getting boards and helping the team get more shots, etc.  And he's paid way less.  Ayton is VERY talented but he is not a winner.  I'd honestly rather have OO straight up as his motor seems better and he seems more committed to doing the little things you need to win.

[MarylandHawk]

24 minutes ago, BangHolman said:

OO has to do more to develop his game to force that kind of trade. I don't care if he was the 6th pick or not. I would do the Ayton deal, but it's not because of where we drafted OO.

I can respect that. I am a little higher on OO17 than most it seems. He has got a midi jump shot now, he has fantastic hands, he is a strong finisher, great screener, great team defender, good individual defender (except around the three point line) and still has upside. 

[JayBirdHawk]

15 hours ago, MarylandHawk said:

I believe he has matured but would be better off starting over with a new coach/team. He fits well with what we lack. 

Mmmmmmm.

 

 

The frustrations appeared to emerge when Ayton failed to set a screen for Mikal Bridges that ended in a blocked shot from Torrey Craig. Ayton and Bridges then began arguing during a Wizards' free throw attempt on the ensuing possession after Ayton was called for a foul.

[Diesel]

Got a trade thought for those of you who want to see OO at PF...

 

How about:

Bogi/JJ to Milwaukee..

Lopez/Connaughton to the Hawks...

We get to roll Lopez to the BU C.    OO goes to BU PF.   They get a ball handling Shooter and an up and coming 4. 

 

[MarylandHawk]

2 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Mmmmmmm.

 

 

The frustrations appeared to emerge when Ayton failed to set a screen for Mikal Bridges that ended in a blocked shot from Torrey Craig. Ayton and Bridges then began arguing during a Wizards' free throw attempt on the ensuing possession after Ayton was called for a foul.

Why you bringing up old stuff?  Lol. 

[LucastheThird]

59 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Are you losing your mind???  Clint is the defensive anchor.  The Lakers walked down the lane and scored at will because as much as I love JC and OO, the Lakers knew that they couldn't defend a direct attack without fouling.  Capela can.  This is why I'm not so hot on trading Capela for Ayton.   They give Ayton the same treatment.   They rush him.  He's a stat man.. you look at the stats and he may have 14 and 18.. but when you watch the game, the other team scores most of their points going directly at him.   Ayton Makes Bismack look like Dikembe when he hits the court. 

 

 

 

I don't think I'm losing my mind. My thinking is:

 

• OO is our future Center and defensive anchor
• Clint is the present, but is getting hurt a lot and we have to worry about his health going forward

Landry/KK/Nick want to trade one of our bigs and get value. Currently, JC's value is low even though he is the one that our FO wants to trade. 

Capela has high value across the league and would net a return like Ayton who would immediately improve our offense. Meanwhile, our defense has started to improve with OO's improvement and JC's focus on defense. 

If we can improve our offense while at the same time keeping our defense at least at the current level, that sounds like a win-win to me. 

[JayBirdHawk]

50 minutes ago, MarylandHawk said:

Why you bringing up old stuff?  Lol. 

A month ago is old??? Ok

[ShooterSays]

I hope we can reconcile things with JC. He's really elevated his defense this year and his shooting is coming back around. None of the rumored trades for him make us better either. The dude is just easy to like and his contributions are solid on both ends.

NOW...the Cap / Ayton swap is something I can get behind. Fine either way if we keep Cap or move in the direction of Ayton, but really like the idea of getting younger and healthier there. Also, I think Ayton opens up the lane for Trae and will help him take his floater game to another level. That floater is already deadly, but imagine it with better spacing and Cap not clogging the paint.

I think either JC / OO work well with Ayton so we have 1.5 seasons to figure it out and see what pairing works best.

[Diesel]

24 minutes ago, ShooterSays said:

 

NOW...the Cap / Ayton swap is something I can get behind. Fine either way if we keep Cap or move in the direction of Ayton, but really like the idea of getting younger and healthier there. Also, I think Ayton opens up the lane for Trae and will help him take his floater game to another level. That floater is already deadly, but imagine it with better spacing and Cap not clogging the paint.

 

Shooter, I want to encourage you and others tot think about this critically.

Why would Phoenix want to trade a former #1 Overall pick who is putting up good numbers?

He was picked before Trae and Luca.  His numbers have not disappointed.   Why do you think Phoenix would be so easily ready to get rid of him?  Because he's a headcase and he's not ever satisfied.   You have seen him have two blow ups with Monty Williams.   You have seen him be very unprofessional and not even communicate with his coach.  As bad as the blow up between Nate and Trae may have been, they never stopped talking. 

Phoenix is holding another Hassan Whitehead and they don't want to hold on to him any longer.  So if we will give up one of the best rebounder defenders for him and his bad attitude.. Phoenix says.. make our day. 

Let me highlight his draft weaknesses... and you think about them..

"Weaknesses: Defensive awareness needs to improve. For a player with such elite physical gifts, his shot blocking ability is curiously average (though he seemed to improve as freshman season progressed). He should be able to improve upon this over time, given the proper coaching and desire … Needs to do a better job guarding against the pick and roll. Can sometimes lose his man … Needs to do better as a help defender … Can get flat footed at times … And seemed to look to preserve energy (and fouls) on the defensive end … While capable of scoring at all three levels, jumper (inparticular shot selection) still needs improvement … Tends to shoot it a bit short and at times can rush his shot … Needs to follow through and also look to improve his touch around the basket … Needs to do a better job of commanding the ball inside and establishing position. He’s so big and strong that he will be very difficult to stop from extablishing position at the next level once his strength peaks out and he fully understands utilizing position and getting low … Sometimes is a bit passive and can be lazy at times, though he played with a solid level of energy for the most part throughout his college career …  Needs to do a better job contesting shots on the perimeter … Needs to do a better job scoring in traffic … If crowded, you can bother him and force him to take a difficult shot or turn the ball over … Will need to improve ability to handle double teams …"

Here's another. 

"Weaknesses: Ayton didn’t make the strides one would hope in his senior year … He did seem more focused towards the end of the season after losing his #1 player in class status nearly universally, but it appeared he got too comfortable sitting at the top spot for too long … He rarely played like he had anything to prove and was complacent offensively … He also turned down the opportunity to compete at the Hoop Summit, an event he had failed to impress at in past years … Tends to settle for jump shots and roams to the perimeter far too often … Can assert himself better as he can go through the motions … Sometimes goes through stretches where he isn’t involved with the offense … Must improve intensity and competitive nature … His jump shot is flat and doesn’t have ideal arc, most of his misses tend to take hard bounces off the rim … Post game is developing but still needs polish, doesn’t have any go to moves … Needs to understand playing aggressive without wearing emotions and picking up frustration fouls … Showed some ability to put the ball on the floor and drive but still resorts to jab stepping and settling for a shot … As an elite level high school bigman, the focus is always to challenge himself as there are plenty of nights where the competition level allows for complacency …"

 

These were profiles developed what 5 years ago.   Many of these are still very true right now.   Somebody called him fool's gold.  I will say he's that.  He may be a very selfish, self absorbed player.  Phoenix wants to end this relationship.  We should be asking ourselves why... and not think that we can't be victimized the same way that they have. 

[Gray Mule]

Forget Ayton.  Trade with the Hornets for Mark Williams.  I'd rather have him.

[AHF]

25 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

Forget Ayton.  Trade with the Hornets for Mark Williams.  I'd rather have him.

There is a good chance the Hornets will be starting Mark Williams the moment they give up on making the playoffs this season.  I'm not sold on him either but this is the right window to trade for him if you are a believer.

[JeffS17]

3 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Mmmmmmm.

 

 

The frustrations appeared to emerge when Ayton failed to set a screen for Mikal Bridges that ended in a blocked shot from Torrey Craig. Ayton and Bridges then began arguing during a Wizards' free throw attempt on the ensuing possession after Ayton was called for a foul.

Thanks for posting this right after my rant.  This is a more focused critique or example of why Ayton's offensive impact does not match his box score stats.

[JeffS17]

I don't want a center that doesn't lead his team in defensive impact.  I know 538 has their detractors but their RAPTOR metric matches my eye test, and if you look at the offensive +/- and defensive +/- it produces for HAwks players, it feels credible.  Look at the difference between Ayton's defensive impact versus Clints.  Clint is by far the most valuable piece to our defense and this stat supports it.  I obviously don't catch as many Suns games, but it is extremely alarming for your starting center to have the worst defensive impact on the entire team.  Not to mention Ayton has the worst offensive impact on his team this year too.  The "best" argument you can make for this is that he quit on his team and is pouting, in which case I definitely do not want him in a Hawks jersey.

[JeffS17]

22 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I don't want a center that doesn't lead his team in defensive impact.  I know 538 has their detractors but their RAPTOR metric matches my eye test, and if you look at the offensive +/- and defensive +/- it produces for HAwks players, it feels credible.  Look at the difference between Ayton's defensive impact versus Clints.  Clint is by far the most valuable piece to our defense and this stat supports it.  I obviously don't catch as many Suns games, but it is extremely alarming for your starting center to have the worst defensive impact on the entire team.  Not to mention Ayton has the worst offensive impact on his team this year too.  The "best" argument you can make for this is that he quit on his team and is pouting, in which case I definitely do not want him in a Hawks jersey.

Also, this isn't some anomaly case where Ayton's backup center is some elite rim protector.  His minutes aren't even being replaced by a center!!! So his +/- defensive impact should be even higher, if anything, because there is no rim protection when he's not on the floor.  Super alarming imo, and however talented he is, watching him play is not inspiring.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, Diesel said:

Got a trade thought for those of you who want to see OO at PF...

 

How about:

Bogi/JJ to Milwaukee..

Lopez/Connaughton to the Hawks...

We get to roll Lopez to the BU C.    OO goes to BU PF.   They get a ball handling Shooter and an up and coming 4. 

 

Milwaukee would never do that.  Lopez would be a good look on this team, even if he doesn't rebound.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

38 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I don't want a center that doesn't lead his team in defensive impact.  I know 538 has their detractors but their RAPTOR metric matches my eye test, and if you look at the offensive +/- and defensive +/- it produces for HAwks players, it feels credible.  Look at the difference between Ayton's defensive impact versus Clints.  Clint is by far the most valuable piece to our defense and this stat supports it.  I obviously don't catch as many Suns games, but it is extremely alarming for your starting center to have the worst defensive impact on the entire team.  Not to mention Ayton has the worst offensive impact on his team this year too.  The "best" argument you can make for this is that he quit on his team and is pouting, in which case I definitely do not want him in a Hawks jersey.

 

If Trae's DRaptor is ( -1.5 ) . . . and Ayton's DRaptor is ( -2.0 ) . . . does that make Deandre the WOAT defensively?

[phoostal]

5 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Mmmmmmm.

 

 

The frustrations appeared to emerge when Ayton failed to set a screen for Mikal Bridges that ended in a blocked shot from Torrey Craig. Ayton and Bridges then began arguing during a Wizards' free throw attempt on the ensuing possession after Ayton was called for a foul.

It looked like they were discussing where they were going to eat after the game, I might be wrong though