Official Game Thread: Hawks at Nets

[AHF]

On 4/1/2023 at 4:52 PM, Hawkmoor said:

Go back to the playoff series vs the Heat wherein Hunter was the best player on the Hawks.  I'm ignoring the 3 point shots he made (which he made a lot).  The key in that series is Trae was forced to give the ball up and make Hunter the de jure number 1 option.  Hunter was able to get into a rhythm where he didn't have to wonder if he was gonna receive the ball when he made his cuts. 

I have to come back to this one because I missed it at the time.  I'm kind of stunned by this take.  Are we going to pretend that the key to Hunter going off that series wasn't Miami double and triple teaming Trae and guarding the bigs to take away the PNR and leaving Hunter with absolutely minimal defensive attention?  They basically said Hunter could have whatever he wanted and that Atlanta wouldn't be able to beat them with Hunter as the lead guy and they were right.  Hunter couldn't make them pay enough to stop them from placing unnatural amounts of attention on Trae.

If Hunter was the #1 option on the team, he would never get the looks he got in that series.  Miami's goal was to make sure Trae didn't have space to shoot and that he couldn't get our injured set of bigs scoring.  They were fine with Hunter taking lots of wide open and lightly marked possessions.  There is no way that Hunter replicates this even if he gets the ball more if Miami actually tried to make it a priority to mark him.

We have a losing record when Hunter scores 25+ points for his career (8-9 in the regular season) largely because he doesn't do enough on offense other than shoot the ball so his impact is muted.  You can't feature him and then run action off of him holding the ball because he doesn't pass particularly well or have great vision.  He isn't going to extend possessions with offensive rebounding or open the floor with hard picks.  He is a nice 3rd to 5th option as someone who is a contributing scorer.  And that is fine.  His value is primarily as a defender.  

In contrast, someone like Bogi is a much more impactful scorer.  Whereas we don't have a single season where we have a winning record in games with Hunter scoring 25+ points, Bogi does more playmaking and stretching the floor and we are 13-7 in the regular season when he scores 25+.

I do think that if CC goes this offseason that will open up more for remaining forwards like Hunter and JC near the basket and I'm always in favor of more action for anyone that will produce efficient scoring.  But I view the Miami series as an example of how much damage Hunter can do when a good defensive team essentially ignores him and sells out to stop Trae and our big men.  I don't view it as a baseline for how effective Hunter is as a situation #1 option when teams are trying to shut him down.

[JayBirdHawk]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

have to come back to this one because I missed it at the time.  I'm kind of stunned by this take.  Are we going to pretend that the key to Hunter going off that series wasn't Miami double and triple teaming Trae and guarding the bigs to take away the PNR and leaving Hunter with absolutely minimal defensive attention?  They basically said Hunter could have whatever he wanted and that Atlanta wouldn't be able to beat them with Hunter as the lead guy and they were right.  Hunter couldn't make them pay enough to stop them from placing unnatural amounts of attention on Trae.

If Hunter was the #1 option on the team, he would never get the looks he got in that series.  Miami's goal was to make sure Trae didn't have space to shoot and that he couldn't get our injured set of bigs scoring.  They were fine with Hunter taking lots of wide open and lightly marked possessions.  There is no way that Hunter replicates this even if he gets the ball more if Miami a

Also add that Miami knew Hunter could not get anyone else involved since his handles and passing is so subpar.

[Peoriabird]

@AHFYou and others continue to try to rewrite history to say that Hunter was not being guarded in the Miami Series.  Shame on you!

 

 

[REHawksFan]

14 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

@AHFYou and others continue to try to rewrite history to say that Hunter was not being guarded in the Miami Series.  Shame on you!

 

 

What?  Nearly all of those baskets were with the D scrambling off an offensive rebound OR trying to scramble to recover from doubling other players.  He was left open time and time again until the last 3-4 possessions.  This video completely proves @AHF take on the game.  

[Peoriabird]

Wide open when he is in iso at the top of the key...LOL!

[Peoriabird]

So let me get this straight...on the 2nd play, hunter receives the ball in the corner, the defense forces him to put the ball on the floor.  he then drives the lane and has to shoot over 2 players and that is wide open to you @REHawksFan?  I now finally see the problem!

[AHF]

28 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

@AHFYou and others continue to try to rewrite history to say that Hunter was not being guarded in the Miami Series.  Shame on you!

 

 

So tell me which of the statements below are incorrect:

1. Trae was repeatedly double and tripled team over the course of the series.  Not on every possession but Miami was clearly focused on trying to throw bodies at him far more than any other Hawk.
2. The Miami defense was not focused on stopping Hunter.  He was at most given normal 1v1 coverage while Trae was being doubled and only got attention from more than 1 defender when he did something like drove past a defender and was given help.

BTW, the rewriting history bit is funny.  I'll pull up the game threads from the time that series was taking place and we can see the commentary from when the series was taking place and verify whether Trae was getting double or tripled team and the kind of attention that Hunter was getting.  If you are trying to strawman my position by changing my post into an assertion that they simply never guarded Hunter at all that is just crazy and I'm not going to both to respond to it.  Of course, he wasn't left unguarded all series.  Just a tertiary priority for the defense at best.

[REHawksFan]

9 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

So let me get this straight...on the 2nd play, hunter receives the ball in the corner, the defense forces him to put the ball on the floor.  he then drives the lane and has to shoot over 2 players and that is wide open to you @REHawksFan?  I now finally see the problem!

I've always known the problem.  You read what you want to read rather what people say.  I didn't say on EVERY play.  I said on nearly every one until the end.  There are obvious exceptions but exceptions don't prove the rule.  

[Peoriabird]

This one

The Miami defense was not focused on stopping Hunter. 

Because at one point they put their best defender on him. And none of those clips showed Trae young being doubled but there were some showing 2 defenders guarding Hunter.

[Peoriabird]

He was left open time and time again until the last 3-4 possessions.

I actually described the 2nd play he made not the last 3-4 possessions which he encountered at least 3 defenders on that play alone.  They were hardly ignoring him

[REHawksFan]

I'm not doing the entire video because it's a waste of time (I know you'll never actually admit being wrong), but here's literally the first 3 scoring plays from that video...

All defenders looking at Trae with Delon pointing to Hunter who no one is paying attention to.

Hunter catches the pass from Trae with a good 8 feet between him and the closest defender. 

Oh look, Trae is being doubled.  One Heat player is shaded toward Hunter in the corner but not closely guarding him.

Hunter gets the ball in the corner and shoots with the closest defender racing toward him but certainly not closely guarding him

Hunter receives the pass with no defender within 2 steps of him

Hunter shoots with the only defender standing behind him and no one contesting from in front.  

 

That's literally the first 3 Hunter buckets from that clip and in none of them was he closely guarded. The first one he was guarded after driving but was certainly not guarded when he received the ball.  Why??  Because all attention was on Trae.  As it was the entire freakin series.  

 

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by REHawksFan

[Peoriabird]

Anyway, y'all are just proving my point.  Even when Hunter does well, there is not only any acknowledgement that he performed well but rather some explanation diminishing performance.  If any other player had played like that, he would have been celebrated and others would have been blamed for the loss...probably Hunter.

[REHawksFan]

Just admit you are wrong and move on dude.  Good grief.  

[Peoriabird]

It just looked like half court basketball to me.  He was no more wide open than anyone else.  Like I said there may have only been 1 play when Trae Young was doubled.  But your hate for him has been noted

[REHawksFan]

Ok....I have to do one more.  This is how much respect they gave to Hunter with 9 min left in the 4th.  No one is even looking at him as Delon drives and kicks to him for a bucket. And before you jump to conclusions, yes, I know they closed out to contest.  He's still not being closely guarded because they don't respect him.  

 

[REHawksFan]

2 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

It just looked like half court basketball to me.  He was no more wide open than anyone else.  Like I said there may have only been 1 play when Trae Young was doubled.  But your hate for him has been noted

I. DON"T. HATE. HUNTER.

 

I hate you misrepresenting and twisting arguments to fit your personal views of players, especially Trae.  I don't think Hunter is ELITE.  I don't hate him. I think he's a useful piece.  

[Peoriabird]

But he is the only player you go out of your way to criticize!  Who else do you criticize like this?

[REHawksFan]

This is what I'm talking about. You don't pay attention to what people say and don't say.  I haven't criticized Hunter at all.  My first post in this thread was literally responding to you pointing out that the video you posted supported AHF's post.  I've criticized you plenty.  Hunter?  Not so much.  

I agree with whomever is saying that Hunter is a good, useful player but isn't elite.  That's my take.  And that's pretty much the extent of my involvement in this discussion.  

 

EDIT:  To be perfectly transparent, you can probably go back and find some random game thread where I was critical of Hunter just like I've been critical of a lot of players that haven't played well, including Trae.  But that isn't the same as "hating" a player.  I don't hate Hunter.  

Edited April 14, 2023 by REHawksFan

[AHF]

29 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

This one

The Miami defense was not focused on stopping Hunter. 

Because at one point they put their best defender on him. And none of those clips showed Trae young being doubled but there were some showing 2 defenders guarding Hunter.

If they were focused on stopping Hunter they would have had Butler on him all the time not just "at one point."  Butler usually guards the SG or SF.  They stand 6'7'' and 6'8'' respectively.  They would be a natural matchup.  And he would not be leaving Hunter alone as Hunter stands without anyone within 5 feet of him so often in that highlight reel you shared.

7 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

But he is the only player you go out of your way to criticize!  Who else do you criticize like this?

It isn't a criticism of Butler to say that he did well when Miami didn't prioritize him on D.  In fact, that is exactly what you'd like to see from him.

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

@AHFYou and others continue to try to rewrite history to say that Hunter was not being guarded in the Miami Series.  Shame on you!

 

 

This was AWESOME!

Can we get some of this Hunter tomorrow night.  He hasn't hit 20 points since early February.