Official Game Thread: Knicks at Hawks

[JayBirdHawk]

11 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Honeymoon is officially over for Quin Snyder, after tonight.

Not for me.  It's 11 games in.  

I just need him to be more flexible with his rotations at end of games.

[JayBirdHawk]

Mitch Rob - 15 rebounds, Hawks starters - 16 rebounds.  Puke-fest.

[AHF]

3 hours ago, terrell said:

Trae Young is an unathletic Russell Westbrook.

The EFG, assists, and turnovers are all the same.

You couldn’t win with Westbrook as your "Star" player either.....

Not to mention sleepy Dre and washed up Capela in the starting 5.

Hawks are doomed...

Thats nearly 80 mill a year right there.. smh

Trade deadline and offseason cant get here fast enough...

 

Hmmm...maybe we should actually use some facts here.

Quote

The EFG, assists, and turnovers are all the same.

Trae Young career efg% .502%

Russell Westrbook efg% .469% 

VERDICT:   Not the same.  Trae +.033%.  That is roughly the same gap between Reggie Miller and DeAndre Hunter.

 

Trae Young career 9.1 apg / 44.1% ast%

Russell Westbrook career 8.4 apg / 41.6% ast%

VERDICT:  Not the same. Trae +0.7 apg / +2.5%.  Roughly the same gap between Mark Price and Sherman Douglas. 

 

Trae Young career 4.1 topg / tov% 15.9%

Russell Westbrook career 4.1 topg / tov% 16.1%

VERDICT:  Very similar.  Trae -0.2%.  The A/TO ratio is not the same due to the gap in assists but very close to the same number of turnovers per game and per possession career to date.

 

The biggest difference between Trae and Westbrook is how efficient they are as scorers career to date.  There is a huge gap between them.  Makes for a bad comparison, imo.

[AHF]

On Quin, this was not a good game for him.  It happens with coaches just like it does with players.  Doesn't shake my confidence in him at all but just like players need to learn from bad games / bad decisions so do coaches.  Snyder seems like someone who does a pretty good job of that and absent more of a pattern I'm not real concerned with his management of rotations right now.  That is an easy thing to screw up and a tough thing to diagnose since we don't get to see what happens in the timeline where he rides the hot hands.  (i.e., if the hot hands went cold and we lost people would likely criticize him for not subbing the starters back in - any decision that works out well tends to draw praise while any decision that fails tends to draw criticism when it comes to rotation management).  

[Plainview1981]

4 hours ago, terrell said:

Trae Young is an unathletic Russell Westbrook.

The EFG, assists, and turnovers are all the same.

You couldn’t win with Westbrook as your "Star" player either.....

Not to mention sleepy Dre and washed up Capela in the starting 5.

Hawks are doomed...

Thats nearly 80 mill a year right there.. smh

Trade deadline and offseason cant get here fast enough...

 

Westbrook main success came when he was with KD. It's obvious why.

It's too bad. Despite passing on Luka, I still thought the first two years that Young could be that guy. His persona is something the Hawks have lacked for years. I don't understand why he can't atlesst be more efficient with his shooting. 

I would take the 46% and 36% in 3's he did a few years ago. I think the Hawks could win with him if he accepted being a second option with a SF that can score big. Those don't go on trees. Or atleast two 38%-40% kind of 3pt shooter's. Guys that have that percentage that can go off.

One would argue that they have two in Bogivand Bey... However, This team needs a Gallo player badly. This team misses a guy with Size that has that mix of 3pt and Post up ability. That player doesn't have to play 35 MPG a night, but that is the kind of threat the team has been missing since Gallo has been gone.

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Plainview1981

[Packfill]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Not for me.  It's 11 games in.  

I just need him to be more flexible with his rotations at end of games.

Agree it is still early for Quinn but I think a lot of us hoped that his time coaching last season would speed everything up this season - at least in terms of knowing the players and what he would want his rotations to look like.

[Packfill]

9 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

Westbrook main success came when he was with KD. It's obvious why.

 

To be fair I think he won MVP after Durant left.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Packfill said:

To be fair I think he won MVP after Durant left.

Agreed.  I will also point out that Westbrook's career high TS% is .554%.  Trae's underwhelming last season was .573% (and his career high is .603%).  Very big gap on scoring efficiency.

[Packfill]

15 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

Westbrook main success came when he was with KD. It's obvious why.

It's too bad. Despite passing on Luka, I still thought the first two years that Young could be that guy. His persona is something the Hawks have lacked for years. I don't understand why he can't atlesst be more efficient with his shooting. 

I would take the 46% and 36% in 3's he did a few years ago. I think the Hawks could win with him if he accepted being a second option with a SF that can score big. Those don't go on trees. Or atleast two 38%-40% kind of 3pt shooter's. Guys that have that percentage that can go off.

One would argue that they have two in Bogivand Bey... However, This team needs a Gallo player badly. This team misses a guy with Size that has that mix of 3pt and Post up ability. That player doesn't have to play 35 MPG a night, but that is the kind of threat the team has been missing since Gallo has been gone.

 

Also JJ right now is shooting 47% from 3; Murray 38%; Bey 37%; Bogi 35%; and Hunter 34%.  Plenty of shooting around Trae right now, particularly if you take the view that he is a shooter too (and despite his low percentages he has gravity to create open looks for others).

[Packfill]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

Agreed.  I will also point out that Westbrook's career high TS% is .554%.  Trae's underwhelming last season was .573% (and his career high is .603%).  Very big gap on scoring efficiency.

Trae is hands down the more efficient scorer.  Prime Westbrook did bring some other things to the table though.  Look at the roster of his team that MVP year and it is actually pretty impressive they won what, 47 games?  

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, Packfill said:

Trae is hands down the more efficient scorer.  Prime Westbrook did bring some other things to the table though.  Look at the roster of his team that MVP year and it is actually pretty impressive they won what, 47 games?  

The rebounding is the big thing prime Westbrook brought over Trae, imo.  And I fully agree with you on that 2016-17 Thunder team.  They had some real depth but  it was a bit of a strange roster that lacked big standouts with Oladipo probably being the closest.  The rest of the roster are grinders like Steven Adams, Taj Gibson, and Andre Roberson; interesting mix of skilled big men with young Sabonis, young Jerami Grant, Ilyasova, and and Enes Kanter; and perimeter shooting role players like Doug McDermott.  Strange team that looks like it would have been brutally bad without Westbrook leading them.

[Plainview1981]

25 minutes ago, Packfill said:

To be fair I think he won MVP after Durant left.

Did he lead a team to the finals though?

[Plainview1981]

21 minutes ago, Packfill said:

Also JJ right now is shooting 47% from 3; Murray 38%; Bey 37%; Bogi 35%; and Hunter 34%.  Plenty of shooting around Trae right now, particularly if you take the view that he is a shooter too (and despite his low percentages he has gravity to create open looks for others).

What I mean is a guy with Size that can post up and go off from the outside. 

The Hawks have very little versatility. 

Bey, Bogi and Hunter are mostly perimeter shooters. None of them play big, none of them are postup/shooters combos, and none of them are good creators.

 

[Plainview1981]

The only players on this roster that are impressing me are JJ and Murray (to some degree). I think JJ has the dog in him to max out his capabilities. Which is something Hunter, OO and Cam all lack/lacked.

That doesnt mean he (JJ) will be a superstar, but I can see him maxing his capabilities. I don't feel OO is going to get there. He is talented, but no real drive to be the best he can be. If Quinn can't get it out of him, I'm not convinced anyone else will either.

Griffin isn't being given a chance. Sadly.

[hylndr11]

Def miss gallo.  I'm not sure there are a ton players like him right now so, cool, bucks approve they need defence , send capella and Hunter to bucks for Lopez. Glad we all agree

[terrell]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Hmmm...maybe we should actually use some facts here.

Trae Young career efg% .502%

Russell Westrbook efg% .469% 

VERDICT:   Not the same.  Trae +.033%.  That is roughly the same gap between Reggie Miller and DeAndre Hunter.

 

Trae Young career 9.1 apg / 44.1% ast%

Russell Westbrook career 8.4 apg / 41.6% ast%

VERDICT:  Not the same. Trae +0.7 apg / +2.5%.  Roughly the same gap between Mark Price and Sherman Douglas. 

 

Trae Young career 4.1 topg / tov% 15.9%

Russell Westbrook career 4.1 topg / tov% 16.1%

VERDICT:  Very similar.  Trae -0.2%.  The A/TO ratio is not the same due to the gap in assists but very close to the same number of turnovers per game and per possession career to date.

 

The biggest difference between Trae and Westbrook is how efficient they are as scorers career to date.  There is a huge gap between them.  Makes for a bad comparison, imo.

Well Trae is way beter at getting to the FT line.. Russ is way better rebounder.. Thats the difference.. Like I said before, FT's are his savings grace..

But the Refs usually swallow the whisltle in the playoffs.

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by terrell

[terrell]

27 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

The only players on this roster that are impressing me are JJ and Murray (to some degree). I think JJ has the dog in him to max out his capabilities. Which is something Hunter, OO and Cam all lack/lacked.

That doesnt mean he (JJ) will be a superstar, but I can see him maxing his capabilities. I don't feel OO is going to get there. He is talented, but no real drive to be the best he can be. If Quinn can't get it out of him, I'm not convinced anyone else will either.

Griffin isn't being given a chance. Sadly.

Watching JJ develop is my entertainment for this season...

Not impressed with ANY other of our "core" players

Murray has been awesome so far though..

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, terrell said:

Well Trae is way beter at getting to the FT line.. Russ is way better rebounder.. Thats the difference.. Like I said before, FT's are his savings grace..

But the Refs usually swallow the whisltle in the playoffs.

 

But it isn't just getting to the free throw line as you can see from the big gap in efg%.  They also aren't equivalent passers and playmakers for others by the numbers or in my opinion.

[terrell]

32 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

The only players on this roster that are impressing me are JJ and Murray (to some degree). I think JJ has the dog in him to max out his capabilities. Which is something Hunter, OO and Cam all lack/lacked.

That doesnt mean he (JJ) will be a superstar, but I can see him maxing his capabilities. I don't feel OO is going to get there. He is talented, but no real drive to be the best he can be. If Quinn can't get it out of him, I'm not convinced anyone else will either.

Griffin isn't being given a chance. Sadly.

Hawks plus minus through 11 games

 

1. Bey. 5.4

2. Jalen. 4.5.

3. Bogi. 4.4.

4. Murray. 4.0

5. OO. 1.6

7. Capela 1.4

8. Young. 1.1

9. Hunter. 1.0

 

Hunter, Trae and our Centers HAVE NOT been good overall this year other than a few moments...

Call it what you want.........

Edited November 16, 2023 by terrell

[terrell]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

But it isn't just getting to the free throw line as you can see from the big gap in efg%.  They also aren't equivalent passers and playmakers for others by the numbers or in my opinion.

Yeah Trae way better playmaker but both careless as hell with the basketball over there careers..