Hawks begun preliminary talks for Carmelo Anthony

[Guest]

I agree that we need a pg really bad, but i feel like if we could get Melo and Nene for Crawford/Smoove/Marvin then we will be a lot better. Our starting lineup could be:Nene/Zaza/CollinsHorford/PowellCarmelo/MoJJ/JC2Bibby/TeagueI think that with this lineup we could content. It takes care of our worries with a center (Nene is a pretty decent center), it puts Horford back at his true position and it takes pressure off of JJ. It gives Denver Smoove who i think would work GREAT with Ty Lawson, and they get Marvin who is a DECENT sf. They also get the reigning 6th man (possible back to back this year). Another trade that I feel would be awesome but less likely would be Melo/Nene/J.R Smith for Smoove/Jamal/Marvin/Teague. This would fill a bench spot that we would lose with Jamal leaving. I think that most of us agree that Teague has been a big disappointment as well as Marvin. Also, Jamal said earlier that he was looking forward to being able to choose where he plays next year. So in my opinion we should get something out of him.I am considering that Carmelo would sign an extension with us after this year.

I wouldn't mind this, but only if Melo signs extension.

[DJlaysitup]

Odds of Carmelo Anthony coming to the Hawks:Carmelo coming to Hawks (barely greater than) - Yellowstone Caldera annihilating all life on earth.

[EazyRoc]

Carmelo is scoring at a .525 ts% clip this season.

Durant is scoring at a VASTLY better .588 clip. A prime Dirk scored at a vastly more efficient .589 clip (age 27).

In fact, Carmelo's career high scoring efficiency (.568 ts%) is MUCH worse than both of their career averages. Carmelo is no where near as good a scorer as either of them.

In fact, Dirk is in his 12th consecutive season of scoring more efficiently than Carmelo has scored in any of the last 3 years. There just is not argument that Carmelo is the more effective scorer.

Overall, Dirk's career average PER And WS/48 are better than Carmelo's career high. Dirk and Durant look much better::

Dirk - Current PER 23.9, Career Average PER 23.8, Career High PER 28.1, Current WS/48 .204, Career Average WS/48 .213, Career HIgh WS/48 .278

Carmelo - Current PER 20.8, Career Average PER 20.1, Career High PER 22.2, Current WS/48 .110, Career Average WS/48 .124, Career High WS/48 .153

Durant - Current PER 23.1, Career Average PER 21.5, Career High PER 26.2, Current WS/48 .165, Career Average WS/48 .145, Career High WS/48 .238

Carmelo can't sniff their jocks to this point in his career.

Let's not overrate him just because he is being mentioned in the same sentence as the Hawks. This is a guy who hasn't measured up to either Durant or Dirk and who actually has been significantly worse the last 3 years than he was his the 3 years before that. He can't measure up to their standards and his career trajectory isn't moving in the right direction over the last 3 years.

That isn't to say he isn't an excellent player but he isn't in that second tier of stars like Durant and Dirk except by reputation, IMO.

Just to clarify, I didn't say Carmelo was a better flat-out scorer. I did say he was more versatile then Durant, though.

I don't like PER or any other formulated stats for that matter, so you mentioning them doesn't mean much to me. I would like to believe that Carmelo has been affected by all the trade rumors surrounding him the entire season. Regardless of his unusually low shooting percentage, he's a better rebounder and a better defender than Dirk. Dirk has players around him that are going to get him shots more often than the players around Carmelo. If it was the final play of the game and we need 2 points, I'd rather have the ball in Melo's hands then Dirk's. Now KD is a different story. He's a much better from long range than Anthony, but that's about it. Carmelo is much better around the basket, and can score the basket in every way imaginable. KD is a slasher with a nice jumper.

As to whether or not Carmelo is a superstar, He has more All Star votes than everyone you named except for KD, Kobe, Dwight, Wade and LeBron. I don't like the idea that one player can make a team a contender, because it's incredibly inaccurate. The only time I can think of when one player has carried a team to the Finals is when LeBron was playing in an extremely weak Eastern Conference. All the other players you've named did not accomplish what you say by themselves. Kobe's Lakers weren't a contender without Gasol or Shaq. Dwight's Magic weren't contenders without Hedo, Skip, and Lewis. Dirk's Mavericks weren't contenders without JT and Howard. I could continue on, but I think you understand where I'm going.

[Vol4ever]

Odds of Carmelo Anthony coming to the Hawks:Carmelo coming to Hawks (barely greater than) - Yellowstone Caldera annihilating all life on earth.

Sounds pretty close to ZERO to me. :biggrin:

[sturt]

Pretty amazing.

The report says, "Other teams, such as the Trail Blazers and Hawks, have been in touch in preliminary terms."

And that's all it says.

Yet, this thread grows and grows as-if the report said, "Hawks in advanced negotiations for Melo."

Fans are obviously starved for change.

Personally, I don't mind change at this juncture, but I've never seen in Melo what evidently others do.

I don't mind us being involved, but I think we fit better as a third team, able to pick up pieces that DEN doesn't want but that would make sense for us (e.g., Harris, had the NJ trade progressed), and enabling Melo to go elsewhere while another team accepts the inherent risks.

[AHF]

Just to clarify, I didn't say Carmelo was a better flat-out scorer. I did say he was more versatile then Durant, though.

I don't like PER or any other formulated stats for that matter, so you mentioning them doesn't mean much to me. I would like to believe that Carmelo has been affected by all the trade rumors surrounding him the entire season. Regardless of his unusually low shooting percentage, he's a better rebounder and a better defender than Dirk. Dirk has players around him that are going to get him shots more often than the players around Carmelo. If it was the final play of the game and we need 2 points, I'd rather have the ball in Melo's hands then Dirk's. Now KD is a different story. He's a much better from long range than Anthony, but that's about it. Carmelo is much better around the basket, and can score the basket in every way imaginable. KD is a slasher with a nice jumper.

The bottomline is that Durant and Dirk put the ball in the hole MUCH more efficiently in an average season than in the best season of Melo's career. So all that versatility doesn't add up to much if it just means you are more versatile at missing more shots.

If you are looking at the playoff numbers, you needn't. Dirk's career numbers are excellent in the playoffs. Carmelo's pretty much suck. Dirk shoots .579 ts% in the playoffs compared to Melo's .523 ts% (even worse than his shooting this season).

Forget the PER and Win Share numbers if you want. Just look at the pure scoring:

DN .615 Current Season

DN .605

DN .601

DN .599

DN .589

DN .585

DN .581

DN .578

DN .578

CA .568

DN .564

DN .564

CA .563

DN .561

CA .552

CA .548

CA .532

CA .526

CA .525 (Current Season)

CA .509

DN .491

The pattern is obvious. It is clear that Carmelo can't score nearly as well as Dirk. Year after year after year. Like I said, it isn't trending in a good direction in recent years either.

As to whether or not Carmelo is a superstar, He has more All Star votes than everyone you named except for KD, Kobe, Dwight, Wade and LeBron.

If All-Star votes are what you are after, we could just trade for Yao Ming. He would come much cheaper. As of January 13:

Carmelo Anthony (945,720)

Yao Ming (928,928)

Melo is overrated.

Edited January 26, 2011 by AHF

[ATownWhatup]

If Melo was traded for.. regardless of how it happened.Would Hawks fans fill the Phil?Would there be sellouts every night?Is Melo a "superstar" that the city will back?Joe + Melo + Horf = Season ticket sales?

YES TO EVERYTHING!!!! it would be our own big 3! LETS GO HAWKS!

[Atlantaholic]

Carmelo is a slightly better version of Joe Johnson. He is not top tier and the Nuggets asking price is ridiculous.

[lethalweapon3]

However we want to "rate" him (overrate/underrate at will... let's call it the "Big Dog-Big German" scale), is there a higher-rated player than Mr. Anthony that is readily available (i.e., being shopped by his team) at this moment?If so, then feel free to begin threads on what it might take to get those persons.Other than that, I don't see where apples-to-oranges-to-cantaloupes comparisons are all that, well, fruitful... particularly if the cantaloupes are clearly not for sale.If a forward is a legitimate upgrade over Marvin and Mo, that's good enough to me... he doesn't have to have the PER of Dirk Nowitzki or Kevin Durant. If said player can put a few extra booties in the seats, even better.~lw3

[EazyRoc]

The bottomline is that Durant and Dirk put the ball in the hole MUCH more efficiently in an average season than in the best season of Melo's career. So all that versatility doesn't add up to much if it just means you are more versatile at missing more shots.

If you are looking at the playoff numbers, you needn't. Dirk's career numbers are excellent in the playoffs. Carmelo's pretty much suck. Dirk shoots .579 ts% in the playoffs compared to Melo's .523 ts% (even worse than his shooting this season).

Forget the PER and Win Share numbers if you want. Just look at the pure scoring:

DN .615 Current Season

DN .605

DN .601

DN .599

DN .589

DN .585

DN .581

DN .578

DN .578

CA .568

DN .564

DN .564

CA .563

DN .561

CA .552

CA .548

CA .532

CA .526

CA .525 (Current Season)

CA .509

DN .491

The pattern is obvious. It is clear that Carmelo can't score nearly as well as Dirk. Year after year after year. Like I said, it isn't trending in a good direction in recent years either.

If All-Star votes are what you are after, we could just trade for Yao Ming. He would come much cheaper. As of January 13:

Carmelo Anthony (945,720)

Yao Ming (928,928)

Melo is overrated.

Like I've said and repeated, I never said Carmelo was a better scorer than Dirk Nowitzki. He is a better overall player because unlike Dirk, he can do more than just shoot the basketball.

I said in my previous post is that those formulated stats are worthless to me. According to PER, Nene is a better player than Joe Johnson. According to win shares, Ray Allen is a better player than Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, LeBron James. According to ts%, Nene Hilario is a better scorer than Amare Stoudemire and even Dirk Nowitzki. This is why I don't like these stats, because there's always a gaping hole in the formula that causes people to overrate certain players. Dirk Nowitzki's teams have been historically better than Carmelo's. I think that has a lot to do with how efficient a player performs. You also failed to mention that KD plays with one the leagues top 10 PGs, which probably a large part in how efficient he plays. Especially considering said PG also takes a lot of the scoring load off of him. It's no coincidence that Carmelo put up his best statistical years with a player like Allen Iverson on his team.

Well when healthy Yao Ming is arguably the best center in the game, but unfortunately he's not. Regardless, Carmelo obviously isn't overrated. An overrated player doesn't make 4 All-NBA Teams.

Edited January 26, 2011 by EazyRoc

[EazyRoc]

Carmelo is a slightly better version of Joe Johnson. He is not top tier and the Nuggets asking price is ridiculous.

Bad comparison.Joe Johnson is a better shooter and a better passer. Carmelo is a much better slasher and rebounder.

[Joker]

Bad comparison.Joe Johnson is a better shooter and a better passer. Carmelo is a much better slasher and rebounder.

Melo also good v. the double team, while Joe is poor. Melo can be unstoppable at a higher clip than Joe. The issue is Melo is not elite v. the double team like the likes CP3, Deron, Lebron, Wade but he's playing with Joe. They would help each other as they both will receive a lot of defensive attention. We will need someone to protect the basket even in spot minutes. I wouldn't mind trading for Thabeet for this scenario. He can split time with Collins and Zaza if he's still here. Jamal is a must keep if we aren't getting Nene. Even adding Harrington, Jamal is just a much better scorer and our scoring off the bench is very bad outside of Jamal. Nene would lessen the needs at Center even though I would still like someone who can protect the basket but we have good enough defenders to play great team defense with Nene.I don't think we are better than Miami after this move. With Nene we are. With Billups, we are for this season and maybe next. But otherwise, I don't see. We have to be proactive taking players with larger contracts and building up the bench. Harrington, Jamal, and Zaza is a good start but we need one more really good bench player. Edited January 26, 2011 by nbasuperstar40

[AHF]

I said in my previous post is that those formulated stats are worthless to me. According to PER, Nene is a better player than Joe Johnson.

Joe has a much better career PER than Nene. He is just behind Nene this season because Nene is scoring 17.5 PPG on 64% FG% (not ts%) while playing impact defense whereas Joe has slumped for 2 of the 3 months this season and been injured for a couple weeks resulting in his worst shooting season in 7 years. That isn't much of a stretch for which guy has been better this season considering Joe is averaging 2 more ppg while shooting .434 fg% compared to Nene's league leading 64% from the field.

According to win shares, Ray Allen is a better player than Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, LeBron James.

You may want to recheck your numbers. I don't think Allen has ever been close to Lebron in win shares or PER:

For this season, Win Shares/48

Ray Allen

.180

Lebron James

.227

Steve Nash

.187

2 is higher than 1; 7 higher than 0. James and Nash are rated better under the WS/48 metric I cited as a reference earlier.

Kidd isn't even shooting 35% from the floor and has his lowest assist numbers in 6 years. It isn't surprising he doesn't rate well by any metric this year. Allen is playing better than Kidd this season.

According to ts%, Nene Hilario is a better scorer than Amare Stoudemire and even Dirk Nowitzki. This is why I don't like these stats, because there's always a gaping hole in the formula that causes people to overrate certain players.

Let me clue you in - you have to compare apples to apples. It has always been the case that big men with more limited games have high fg%s and therefore high ts%s. It is also the case that generally big men who are effective scorers are better scorers than guards. Moreover, Dirk and Carmelo have similar offensive games and productivity. When two players shoot the ball a similar number of times as the same offensive option on their team (primary scoring option), the guy who scores more efficiently is better. There is nothing deceptive about that comparison.

Dirk Nowitzki's teams have been historically better than Carmelo's. I think that has a lot to do with how efficient a player performs.

Let's see how that correlates:

2009-10

55 win Dallas - Dirk .578 ts%

53 win Denver - Melo .548 ts%

2008-09

54 win Denver - Melo .532 ts%

50 win Dallas - Dirk .564 ts%

2007-08

51 win Dallas - Dirk .585 ts%

50 win Denver - Melo .568 ts%

Somehow I doubt even you believe that rationale. Next excuse...

Really? You also failed to mention that KD plays with one the leagues top 10 PGs, which probably a large part in how efficient he plays. Especially considering said PG also takes a lot of the scoring load off of him. It's no coincidence that Carmelo put up his best statistical years with a player like Allen Iverson on his team.

Cry me a river for Melo only playing with Andre Miller in his prime, Chauncey Billups, and Allen Iverson.

Can you imagine how much he would suck on the Hawks since JJ has been here if he is so dependent on his PG?

Well when healthy Yao Ming is arguably the best center in the game, but unfortunately he's not. Regardless, Carmelo obviously isn't overrated. An overrated player doesn't make 4 All-NBA Teams.

Melo is overrated as a star scoring option. Allen Iverson was overrated as well. He made more than 4 All-NBA teams. Not coincidently, AI wasn't a particularly efficient scorer but was popular like Melo. Edited January 26, 2011 by AHF

[Swatguy]

Bad comparison.Joe Johnson is a better shooter and a better passer. Carmelo is a much better slasher and rebounder.

Carmelo is head and shoulders better than Joe. Are you kidding? Melo from the arc, Melo to the rack. Joe is very good, Melo is exceptional.

[AHF]

Carmelo is head and shoulders better than Joe. Are you kidding? Melo from the arc, Melo to the rack. Joe is very good, Melo is exceptional.

I think Melo is closer to JJ than the true superstars in the league. He is better and younger than JJ but the difference isn't huge.

[EazyRoc]

Joe has a much better career PER than Nene. He is just behind Nene this season because Nene is scoring 17.5 PPG on 64% FG% (not ts%) while playing impact defense whereas Joe has slumped for 2 of the 3 months this season and been injured for a couple weeks resulting in his worst shooting season in 7 years. That isn't much of a stretch for which guy has been better this season considering Joe is averaging 2 more ppg while shooting .434 fg% compared to Nene's league leading 64% from the field.

You may want to recheck your numbers. I don't think Allen has ever been close to Lebron in win shares or PER:

For this season, Win Shares/48

Ray Allen

.180

Lebron James

.227

Steve Nash

.187

2 is higher than 1; 7 higher than 0. James and Nash are rated better under the WS/48 metric I cited as a reference earlier.

Kidd isn't even shooting 35% from the floor and has his lowest assist numbers in 6 years. It isn't surprising he doesn't rate well by any metric this year. Allen is playing better than Kidd this season.

Let me clue you in - you have to compare apples to apples. It has always been the case that big men with more limited games have high fg%s and therefore high ts%s. It is also the case that generally big men who are effective scorers are better scorers than guards. Moreover, Dirk and Carmelo have similar offensive games and productivity. When two players shoot the ball a similar number of times as the same offensive option on their team (primary scoring option), the guy who scores more efficiently is better. There is nothing deceptive about that comparison.

Let's see how that correlates:

2009-10

55 win Dallas - Dirk .578 ts%

53 win Denver - Melo .548 ts%

2008-09

54 win Denver - Melo .532 ts%

50 win Dallas - Dirk .564 ts%

2007-08

51 win Dallas - Dirk .585 ts%

50 win Denver - Melo .568 ts%

Somehow I doubt even you believe that rationale. Next excuse...

Once again, the formulated stats are pointless to me. If you ask NBA scouts, if they had to choose between Chris Bosh and Nene Hilario or David West (regardless of injury issues and other circumstances) I bet 10 out of 10 pick Chris Bosh. However, according to PER there is only a small difference in effectiveness. Continuing the trend of comparing apples to apples, according to winshares/48 Manu is better than Kobe and Kevin Garnett is having a significantly better season than Amare Stoudemire. It's laughable. Regardless, I never said that Carmelo was the better scorer between him and Dirk. So why is it that you keep producing ts% numbers like you're proving a point to me ?

07-08 Mavericks had Josh Howard who played the best season of his career average 20 ppg. Jason Kidd nearly averaged a double double the whole season. They had a very good PG in Devin Harris, and one of the best bench players in the league with Terry.

08-09 Mavericks were much of the same minus Devin Harris. A team with nearly 3 people averaging 20 ppg. When has Carmelo ever had a cast like that ?

09-10 Mavericks You subtract Josh Howard and add the much better Caron Butler. Jason Kidd almost averages a double double once again.

Yes, I really do believe the players you have around you in a team game affect how well you perform as a player. I didn't know the idea was that farfetched.

Cry me a river for Melo only playing with Andre Miller in his prime, Chauncey Billups, and Allen Iverson.

Can you imagine how much he would suck on the Hawks since JJ has been here if he is so dependent on his PG?

Andre Miller ? He never averaged more than 15 points with the Nuggets and he's a horrible shooter on the perimeter which doesn't help a player like Carmelo that much. Chauncey Billups is a great basketball player, but not one that can make things happen for his teammates. Russell Westbrook is better at this point in his career than either on of them has ever been. I never said Carmelo was dependent on a PG, but I do think a really good PG would make him more effective. I mean, that's the case for a lot of players in the league. Again, I thought that was fairly common knowledge. Excuse me.

Melo is overrated as a star scoring option. Allen Iverson was overrated as well. He made more than 4 All-NBA teams. He also wasn't a particularly efficient scorer.

It looks like to me that you value ts% and all those ridiculous stats more than sportswriters and broadcasters. Otherwise more efficient, but lesser players would have made it more than Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony. Edited January 26, 2011 by EazyRoc

[yungsta]

melo is really just an elite scorer. His defense isnt really all that great and he cant really lead a team like the other superstars. Remember the nuggets use to get knocked out in the 1st round every year b4 billups came and lead the team. Melo wont really make us contenders IMO but i would love melo in a hawks uniform for the more media attention and increased fan support

[EazyRoc]

Carmelo is head and shoulders better than Joe. Are you kidding? Melo from the arc, Melo to the rack. Joe is very good, Melo is exceptional.

It's not as significant as you make it seem. If Joe could score down low like Carmelo, he could possibly lead the league in scoring. That's not a knock on Carmelo, it's just in his slump we, as Hawks fans, have forgotten that Joe is a very good basketball player. A borderline superstar. I, however, disagree with AHF. Carmelo is a superstar in this league. He's made multiple All-NBA Teams and All-Star teams, and I believe is one of the top 3 in the west in All Star voting. He has the fan support, which I think is one of the few things separating Joe from being a superstar. Edited January 26, 2011 by EazyRoc

[Diesel]

Carmelo is head and shoulders better than Joe. Are you kidding? Melo from the arc, Melo to the rack. Joe is very good, Melo is exceptional.

I don't think Melo makes those around him better. I think he's Big Dog II. I don't see him helping us if we give up too much for him.

[NineOhTheRino]

I will not bore with stats. Here's how I see the Joe/Melo comparison. Joe is good looking girl that cooks, clean and keeps quiet. Melo is the beautiful girl that's amazing in the bedroom but doesn't do much else.

Edited January 26, 2011 by NineOhTheRino