No Extension for John Collins

[Wretch]

I'm officially off the fence about Collins. I was leaning towards trade for equivalent value (not necessarily at PF), but there was something about the way he played in that Clippers game. While I do believe that someone else will assume the role 2nd option for us, I'm sold on JC's place here. I believe his market value is legit for what he does.

Unless we are floored by a trade, then matching him in the off-season is a no-brainer.

[JayBirdHawk]

10 minutes ago, Wretch said:

I'm officially off the fence about Collins. I was leaning towards trade for equivalent value (not necessarily at PF), but there was something about the way he played in that Clippers game. While I do believe that someone else will assume the role 2nd option for us, I'm sold on JC's place here. I believe his market value is legit for what he does.

Unless we are floored by a trade, then matching him in the off-season is a no-brainer.

[bleachkit]

Just like Capela protects JC on defense, JC protects Capela on offense. Capela honestly is not a very skilled offensive player. He can dunk and he has the short jump hook. But if he has to make an athletic move, more often than not he misses. In fact, he misses strait up bunnies all the time. If we traded JC, and then had to expand Capela's role on offense, I think the results would be disappointing.

[macdaddy]

3 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Just like Capela protects JC on defense, JC protects Capela on offense. Capela honestly is not a very skilled offensive player. He can dunk and he has the short jump hook. But if he has to make an athletic move, more often than not he misses. In fact, he misses strait up bunnies all the time. If we traded JC, and then had to expand Capela's role on offense, I think the results would be disappointing.

Exactly.  I've never seen a guy this big miss the whole basket from inches away so many times.

But the assertion that JC and Capela won't fit is thoroughly debunked.  

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

But the assertion that JC and Capela won't fit is thoroughly debunked.  

All those comments are right but this is the bottomline.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

 

Quote

“It’s something that you obviously have to get used to, but it’s just the nature of the business and the nature of being an NBA player,” Collins said on Tuesday night. “Obviously, teams having the ability to move you as they choose and trade you is the nature of the game, so I don’t try to think about it too much. But I understand things happen, so I always try to have an open mindset.” 

 

I was wondering about this:

Quote

According to sources aware of the negotiations, the Hawks did not budge on their $90 million offer — it was a take-it-or-leave-it deal, and Collins obviously left it on the table with the belief he could get more money in free agency this coming offseason. 

Great answer:

Quote

With the way negotiations unfolded prior to the season, there was disappointment on Collins’ side of the equation. He felt like he should have been presented a bigger offer; the Hawks felt otherwise. When asked if he felt like the Hawks valued him the way he perceives himself, Collins answered truthfully.

“I definitely feel like there’s always going to be a gap in what I feel like should happen and what they feel like should happen,” Collins said. “I definitely feel like the way I’ve been treated — I have some different takes on it. There’s been a lot of ups and downs in my career thus far and having to deal with a lot of things mentally as a young player. For me, it’s an interesting question. I really feel like it’s all up to what you desire and value on the court and how you gauge that and look at me going into the future. I feel like I go out there and play my heart out and play my butt off on the court. That decision is to be made on (the Hawks’) end. For me, it’s to be proven on the court. I feel like all I can do is prove it basketball-wise.”

 

Quote

Collins did say on Tuesday night that his approach was never “max or bust” this past offseason. In an interview with The Athletic last March, Collins said he viewed himself in max-contract territory but never said he needed a max to feel content — just that he believed he earned that kind of deal.

“For me, there wasn’t necessarily a single number. There’s never been a single number,” Collins said. “I’ve never said, ‘I need a max or I’m only taking a max.’ All I said with my play and what I’ve done, I feel like I should be in max contention or I should be in the caliber or realm of guys who do what I do on the court. That’s all I said. There was never, ‘Oh, I need a five-year max.’ I’ve never said any of that. I just said I felt like I played myself into great position to be talked about with those other guys and be it as it may. That’s what I said. I felt like my play spoke for me and I wanted to continue to let it do that but obviously there are different narratives that are being taken. There’s a lot of stuff that can be misconstrued when it comes to stuff like this. It’s just something I have to take in stride and keep going.”

 

[NBASupes]

I am all in on resigning JC. His fit with Capela has been beautiful. Okongwu is a couple years away. Let's stick with what's working.

[JayBirdHawk]

20 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I am all in on resigning JC. His fit with Capela has been beautiful. Okongwu is a couple years away. Let's stick with what's working.

[Wretch]

Honestly, this was always about his impact vs. our payroll and Schlenk made the right call.  There wasn't a good reason to not wait and see what his impact looks like to a winning team.  All we had last summer were his stats and different interpretations of the value of those stats.  That's literally the reason why he's holding his breath right now...why we're even having this conversation.

For me it will always be about timing and selling high - lol, everything's negotiable.  It's how the most influential deals (and steals) get done.  The timing and his value is/was perfect for a blockbuster...but I'm just too impressed by how well this team fits together.  We are one strong piece away from being scary good.

 

37 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

 

I was wondering about this:

Great answer:

 

 

All of this sounds like all parties have figured this thing out.

[macdaddy]

Broken record but he's the heart of the team.  And as others have pointed out he'll be  moveable if we don't want him at some point but i doubt that happens.  

[kg01]

3 hours ago, Wretch said:

I'm officially off the fence about Collins. I was leaning towards trade for equivalent value (not necessarily at PF), but there was something about the way he played in that Clippers game. While I do believe that someone else will assume the role 2nd option for us, I'm sold on JC's place here. I believe his market value is legit for what he does.

Unless we are floored by a trade, then matching him in the off-season is a no-brainer.

Not sure how to feel about your revelation, WretchedOne.

What have you been waiting on before jumping on the bandwagon?  I mean, I get it.  The only seat available was between @AHF and @bird_dirt and them dudes won't stop talking about getting revenge on GT but come on.

That's no reason to stay off the Con Jollins Wagon.

[Wretch]

50 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Not sure how to feel about your revelation, WretchedOne.

What have you been waiting on before jumping on the bandwagon?  I mean, I get it.  The only seat available was between @AHF and @bird_dirt and them dudes won't stop talking about getting revenge on GT but come on.

That's no reason to stay off the Con Jollins Wagon.

Eh....  Anyone can see how productive he is, so it's never been about JC's potential so much. I did have issues with the distractions which I felt (and still feel like) he caused and of course there's the whole "is he worth it" conversations about his market value/max.  At the end of the day, for me it was less about all that and more about simple timing and selling high.  It ALWAYS comes down to that for me.  If it's up for debate, then it's negotiable in my book.  If it's negotiable, then it's all about timing and selling high - both of which made sense.  So while most people were arguing over his value and should we pay him and his value to our core and all that...I was just over here rubbing my hands together trying to imagine the kind of haul he'd bring lol.

That was until things started coming together recently and I realized how good we look out there.  I was always weary of busting up the Trae/JC on-court chemistry...but it's a whole other thing now.  They looked REALLY good against the Clippers....like holy crap good.  One really good piece away from being a contender good...

So, whereas prior to the season I had a line drawn under Trae, some nigh untouchables in Cam/Hunter, and interest in seeing what JC's trade value was (and quite willing to swap him for equivalent exchange at the 2/3)...  I now have a line beneath Trae/JC/Capela, nigh untouchables in Hunter/Huerter (who is my favorite Hawk now), and an antsy eye on Cam.

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

Con Jollins

I dig this.

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

WretchedOne

You leave Wretch alone he’s been nothing but good to us. I’d take an online bullet for that guy!

ps @kg01 check you PM.

[Spud2nique]

5 hours ago, Wretch said:

believe his market value is legit for what he does.

I want him here. I want him to call Atlanta home forever and be able to water his hibiscus or bush or whatever gardening he wants to do. 
 

Having said that, can he be able to afford to water the plants 🪴 for like 90-95 million instead of the max?  

 

[sturt]

Got news for whoever this guy is... it's pretty much a given that any team is naturally "hard-pressed to move much beyond (being a team that can make the playoffs) without huge internal improvement."

But you can't just decide to draft a LeBron, can't just decide that your 15th pick is going to be Giannis, and can't decide to spend $35m in free agency and gain a Kawhi.

At some point, every team that isn't a glamour team that has media advantage in free agency has to hope for huge internal improvement... and often, even if you are one of those glamour teams.

So, that to say, not real impressed with that analysis... perhaps someone named Leroux is better placed analyzing hockey? Dunno.

And putting a bow on top... to say, whatever... John Collins at age 26 could be top tier.

[terrell]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I am all in on resigning JC. His fit with Capela has been beautiful. Okongwu is a couple years away. Let's stick with what's working.

For how much?

[RandomFan]

1 hour ago, sturt said:

Got news for whoever this guy is... it's pretty much a given that any team is naturally "hard-pressed to move much beyond (being a team that can make the playoffs) without huge internal improvement."

But you can't just decide to draft a LeBron, can't just decide that your 15th pick is going to be Giannis, and can't decide to spend $35m in free agency and gain a Kawhi.

At some point, every team that isn't a glamour team that has media advantage in free agency has to hope for huge internal improvement... and often, even if you are one of those glamour teams.

So, that to say, not real impressed with that analysis... perhaps someone named Leroux is better placed analyzing hockey? Dunno.

And putting a bow on top... to say, whatever... John Collins at age 26 could be top tier.

From reading his full article with Kirschner earlier today, that Leroux guy seems to REALLY know what he's talking about. I suggest you read the whole thing if you haven't. I think it would give you a better understanding what he's talking about. He's not saying anything controversial in that paragraph. 

He's just talking about what he would do if he were the GM. And in his opinion the holes that he sees in Collins' game aren't worth the big investment JC wants. I mean, it seems Travis agrees since the contract he was offered was for $90 million and not anything close to the max. 

It's all about roster construction and where you choose to spend your limited resources. If a puzzle piece doesn't fit the rest of your roster perfectly, then how much money do you choose to allocate to keep that piece? When is it more beneficial to move that piece for a different piece that might be a better fight longterm? That is all he is talking about, and these are VERY tough decisions that make or break GM's careers. It's why they get paid the big bucks. 

I will say I think the one point he's overlooking as that even after we resign JC to a contract extension this offseason, we aren't exactly "stuck" with him. He would still be an asset that could be traded if necessary. That is the main reason I'm not worried about paying JC this offseason, even though I don't think he's a great fit for our team if we have championship aspirations. I hope he proves me wrong and it's still possible, and with his attitude and love for ATL nothing would make me happier. But if he ends up holding us back in the future we can still trade him because he will still have value in the league, even if his best value isn't as a fit for us. 

EDIT -- one can argue whether or not Jon fits us perfectly already, and sure we can have that debate. Some will say yes, others will say no. Again, this is why the GM's make the big bucks. I think in his full article with Kirschner earlier today Leroux made a strong case why Collins isn't exactly a perfect fit for how we want to build around Trae. But again, that's his opinion and he could be wrong. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by RandomFan

[kg01]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

You leave Wretch alone he’s been nothing but good to us. I’d take an online bullet for that guy!

ps @kg01 check you PM.

Oh yeah, @Wretch is that dude.  It was a term of endearment.