Official Game Thread: Nuggets at Hawks

[NBASupes]

15 hours ago, marco102 said:

Here are Murray's first eleven games.  All, but one with Capela and Trae. 

He played pretty fantastic. 

What happened was the Hawks schedule got tougher and Murray started to slump as he adjusted to his new role and better competition. 

To me, it had nothing to do with his fit with Capela and Trae.

Players slump. He was getting the same shot diet.  Murray was just missing most of those shots. In specific games, yeah the spacing was an issue due to opponent's scheming, but for the most part, he was getting to his spots and missing rather Capela or Trae were on the floor or not. 

Trae struggled and he was all about getting Murray involved and teams didn't have enough tape on our new squad to adjust to Murray and Trae. You trying to hard to prove me wrong when I watch every game. Only games I missed was recently because I was waiting till Bogi comes back 

[StonedDogs]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

Trae did take us to the ECF.  You can talk about Game 7 in Philly, but even in that game he had impact down the stretch.  Also, why was Seth Curry on Huerter to begin with?  We won three Game 1 playoff road games that year.  NY, Trae hits a game winner.  Philly and Milwaukee got completely blitzed by Trae in Game 1, remember 48 points vs the Bucks?

Trae led the league in points AND assists, but also with extremely high efficiency.  He is always a big net positive when assessing his on/off court stats.  I don't see any valid case for a team being better without Trae.

But can he get us a ring?  I will just say I feel more confident than at any point since the Wilkins era.  We almost got one two years ago.  With the right seasoning and group, I could see it happening.  To me the NBA has changed so significantly since the Splash Bros type of ball has proven the analytics on the value of shooting 38 3's per game.  Right now there is a lot of parity since the Warriors team declined, and even a lower tier Warriors won the title.  Parity could be here to stay with the new style of play.  

I probably wasted my time writing this because you seem set with the "Trae is a show boating ball hog" train and that is pretty much all I've seen you post.  Ask yourself how many players share so many records with Magic, Jordan, Lebron, Luka, etc.?  We lose track of how much Trae lines up with all time greats.    

One thing Trae can do that some of the other top 10-15 players in the league can not is control the tempo and flow of the game.  When he comes into a building and hits you at every angle inside, outside, floater, mid range, lobs, cross court, etc.  He can get into the "avatar state" more than most players and destroy your game plan.  That is how we got to the ECF, and we only have that potential with a guy like Trae. It won't happen trading Trae for a "team first" Dudley Do Right.  

You didn't waste your time but how long will Hawks fans hold to to "almost"?

How long will you talk about two years ago? It was fun. It was a unique season watching basketball in July. But its over, no more Hawks creeping up on teams. Last year they looked bad with a full regular season

This year the Heat still shut him down with no players in regular season. You have to admit he has to learn the game more. You honestly think you can build around him and win. I disagree. I didn't say trade him for a team first Dudley do right but you can pick up two all stars. Maybe a top draft pick. Some money build. Im just not building around a 6'0 160lb guard who dont play defense. Once his speed slows around 27, 28 what does he become? 

CP3 has no ring and got closer than Trae playing out West with a much better team than the Hawks. It aint easy as you make it with your "almost" talk. You guys have to be honest with yourselves. Like Kuz said, build around Bol Bol. 

 

[StonedDogs]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Did anybody see us getting to the Conference Finals?  Did anybody see us winning 2 games in the conference finals?

If it were 100% predictable, nobody would watch...

Diesel you're one of the smarter ones but another one holding on to that ECF. The difference between Braves fans is we were genuinely pissed off we lost to the Phillies. All we had to do was have a good game one and the rest was probably history. Back to back ws appearances most likely.

Braves fans didn't hold on to 2021 world series. It was a great run, it was fun but we won 88 that year. This yr we won 100. We wanted that ring this year because it would have solidified we were the shit. No, Houston is the shit. They build correctly and Braves want that. And 2023 we wontbe talking about '21 world series. We want to win now. You're the type to want to hold on to Dansby (the face of the team) because he's home grown. No, get rid of him, use your rookie (Grissom), take that money and build your team with pitching...Pieces you need. 

[benhillboy]

2 hours ago, Final_quest said:

He is always a big net positive when assessing his on/off court stats. 

In the last three regular seasons where he’s a significant positive on-court player the Hawks were on average 1.13 points worse with him off.  If that’s a “big net positive” here’s Delon’s Wright’s playoff on/ off for contrast:

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by benhillboy

[Spud2nique]

11 hours ago, MarylandHawk said:

Don’t fall for it bro.  All of us can have honest opinions about what we think. That’s different than  harping  on a guys weakness every moment you get just to prove some remote notion you are right about an aspect of someones game. I think most of us are fans of the team and that we ultimately want to see the players and the franchise succeed.  

Ya this. A lotta posters are critical about Trae but I’m not even sure they are our fans to be honest. Not naming names but folks from FakeGM do come here, pretend to be Hawks fans and play devil’s advocate and say we aren’t good enough even on the nights that we dominate. 
 

My advice: Skim through the BS. 
 

I tend to gravitate to posters who bring some light to topics of actually know WTF they are talking about. 
 

Some of the other posters could again be Trae haters following us from other sites and just being sad individuals who made up a screen name here at squawk. 
 

Some Monday morning QB’s and others not genuine.

 

Trae is a superstar. We can still nitpickhis game but at least do it on a night where he isn’t teaching a masterclass on the court we his SAVANT passing. The best since Magic Johnson.

[Spud2nique]

8 hours ago, StonedDogs said:

The one who only him, took you to the ECF.

When you say things like..

The one who took YOU… to the ECF.

Are you one of us? Just curious if YOU were satisfied with an ECF showing against the Warriors. 

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, StonedDogs said:

but how long will Hawks fans hold to to "almost"?

 You ain’t ridin. Wait you a Hawks fan right? 

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, StonedDogs said:

You guys have to be honest with yourselves.

 Seriously bro? You guys? Thought you were with us, your posts disagree. 

[Spud2nique]

19 hours ago, NBASupes said:

At the 3:23 mark. JJ might have had one of the most impressive reads of the game to Capela for a dunk

Sick read indeed.

[marco102]

3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Trae struggled and he was all about getting Murray involved and teams didn't have enough tape on our new squad to adjust to Murray and Trae. You trying to hard to prove me wrong when I watch every game. Only games I missed was recently because I was waiting till Bogi comes back 

It is not about proving you wrong. I watch every game too. You keep commingling two different arguments between Trae, Murray, and Capela 

You said Capela causes Murray to struggle because of Capelas location on the offense. I showed you evidence that that wasn't the case and then you come up with some other arbitrary argument.

I don't overreact to small sample sizes either way and you tend to. I'm just saying let it play out before becoming trader joe.

[marco102]

1 hour ago, benhillboy said:

In the last three regular seasons where he’s a significant positive on-court player the Hawks were on average 1.13 points worse with him off.  If that’s a “big net positive” here’s Delon’s Wright’s playoff on/ off for contrast:

 

I hate when yall do this with role players.  Let Trae be injured and let delon run the team and that plus minus will be much different. There is a difference. Delon is a bench warmer and Trae is a starter. If you think Delon Wright is 16 pts per game better than Trae, then that is on you.

I'm utterly flabbergasted you would post such garbage.

Also showing 5 games vs entire seasons.

Just agendaing.

Edited December 4, 2022 by marco102

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, marco102 said:

I hate when yall do this with role players.  Let Trae be injured and let delon run the team and that plus minus will be much different. There is a difference. Delon is a bench warmer and Trae is a starter. If you think Delon Wright is 16 pts per game better than Trae, then that is on you.

I'm utterly flabbergasted you would post such garbage.

Yup. I’m old school. While I appreciate some stats, I just don’t get +/- over an test? I’m sorry I’m not a stats guy and I still manage to do well in fantasy leagues… most years ….  ..

 

Horrible example this year I’m 12/12 in one league but…in squawk #2 I’m 1st ! 
 

Wow, 12th and 1st. That’s odd  wonder what THE STATS ARE OF THAT HAPPENING AGAIN???? RANT OVER.

[Spud2nique]

8 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I hate when yall do this with role players.  Let Trae be injured and let delon run the team and that plus minus will be much different. There is a difference. Delon is a bench warmer and Trae is a starter. If you think Delon Wright is 16 pts per game better than Trae, then that is on you.

I'm utterly flabbergasted you would post such garbage.

Also showing 5 games vs entire seasons.

Just agendaing.

I am curious. Does Benhill or anyone else know the best statistical all time NBA team? I mean, personally, my eye test without stats has..

pg- Magic

sg-Jordan

sf- Bird lebum NIQUE!  (I’m a lifer 21!)

pf- Duncan

c- Hakeem

 

I’ll bet that’s not the all time stat team tho. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Spud2nique

[AtLaS]

20 hours ago, NBASupes said:

It helped Denver didn't read the scouting report on Culver

This is what happens in an 82 games season when random rotational players are out and new players are in.  Teams aren't scouted NEARLY as well, so it's easy for a team missing key starters to win.  When i play pickup against players who havent seen me before, i can get to my spots much easier.  When i play my best friends, it's much more difficult.  This is basketball 101 and is true even on the pro level, as evidenced by lower scoring games and worse percentages in the playoffs EVERY year.

It's frustrating to me listening to some fans b/c some ppl look at this as an example of "this team is better without Trae" or Grizz are better without Ja, or Mavs are better without Luka type nonsense. 

Without Trae this team wouldn't have a prayer against anyone in the playoffs.  You need players who can create offense in a slower grind, playoff style, intense atmosphere when teams are playing harder and truly scouting you.  This is why stars win championships.

Trae had a bad playoff last year against a defense he hadn't seen before and had no lob threats with Capela or Collins, and noone else to handle the ball.  I'm not going to hold that against him.  Most stars have had horrible playoff series at some point in their careers.  It happens.  

It does take more time to gel with a player like him though, anyone who is ball dominant it will take time.  But if we are going to win anything we have to make it work.

[benhillboy]

34 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I hate when yall do this with role players.  Let Trae be injured and let delon run the team and that plus minus will be much different. There is a difference. Delon is a bench warmer and Trae is a starter. If you think Delon Wright is 16 pts per game better than Trae, then that is on you.

I'm utterly flabbergasted you would post such garbage.

Also showing 5 games vs entire seasons.

Just agendaing.

I didn’t mean to strike a chord @marco102.  I apologize.

Let’s try a starer in Clint who plays with the same players and has about half of Trae’s usage.  Maybe you’ll like that on/ off comparison:

Or maybe you’d prefer another PG in Marcus Smart’s since he’s been a starter.  Again, about half of Traes usage.

How someone could get upset at someone presenting stats I can’t understand.  Haliburton’s and SGA’s on/ off are much worse than Trae’s for reasons as obvious as Delon’s skewed values.  You think I would lash out at someone for highlighting it?

Edited December 4, 2022 by benhillboy

[benhillboy]

All I was saying to the people who value advanced stats is if you think a career -.7 on court in the regular and -4.1 in the postseason is great more power to you. 
 

If you’re a Trae Young fan into advanced stats you have to know that his closest career win share comparisons are Rolondo Blackmon, Dan Majerle, and Reggie Theus and that the Hawks have won at a .481 clip without him.  I won’t allow you to not know that.

Edited December 4, 2022 by benhillboy

[marco102]

3 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

All I was saying to the people who value advanced stats is if you think a career -.7 on court in the regular and -4.1 in the postseason is great more power to you. 

No, the problem I had was the use of a smaller sample size and comparing him to a bench player.

Also, on/off is noisy so why not use a more catch all stat?

So are you saying the players with the highest on/off in the playoffs win series?  If on/off +/- doesn't tell you who the real stars are then the stat is useless.  Cause it seems like per 100 possession some bench player should be playing over superstars and we all know the team with the better playing superstars generally win playoff series.  This is no indictment on role players, but I'd def be looking for Trae Young with 1 sec on the clock with a chance to win the game vs Delon Wright. 

[AtLaS]

2 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

All I was saying to the people who value advanced stats is if you think a career -.7 on court is great more power to you.

So you are using his rookie/soph on court +/- to show that he has a career negative on court?  This is very selective, and unfair analysis.  His only 2 years with a negative on court number were his rookie and sophomore years, when we were clearly rebuilding and not trying to compete.  Even in year 2, we were 7 points better with him on the court than off, so we were much "less bad" with him on the court.  I think it's much better to look at Trae's numbers starting in year 3, where we added vets to the team and actually tried to win.  In the last 3 years he is averaging a +3.5 on court.  

I'm sure I could go dig up many stars on court +/- from their rookie/soph years during a rebuild and would find similar results. 

Bad argument.

[StonedDogs]

53 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

 You ain’t ridin. Wait you a Hawks fan right? 

I am Hawks all day. But how can you not see the hustle this team played the other night, the ball sharing, the leader, the young stud who is a bucket, Culver is still very young all he needs is coaching to develop him for confidence 

OO has always been a baller. JJ has a motor. You just aren't been shown these things. Like I said in another post, ditch Dansby, take that money and build your pitching. How can you not see your peak with #11 has been reached especially with this coach

[marco102]

1 minute ago, StonedDogs said:

I am Hawks all day. But how can you not see the hustle this team played the other night, the ball sharing, the leader, the young stud who is a bucket, Culver is still very young all he needs is coaching to develop him for confidence 

OO has always been a baller. JJ has a motor. You just aren't been shown these things. Like I said in another post, ditch Dansby, take that money and build your pitching. How can you not see your peak with #11 has been reached especially with this coach

How can you use a 1 game sample size with a bad defensive team to make these conclusions?  

We are still making our adjustments with a lot of new pieces and offensive roles.  Boston took 44 games before getting it together last year.  What if they had shipped Tatum or Brown off because it hadn't worked the past two seasons? 

It's way too early to be drawing these conclusions in Trae's overall career and for this season.