Official Game Thread: Hawks at Nets Part 1

[JTB]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

This post ain't it bro. 

But why are y’all so quiet now ? 

[AHF]

MODERATOR NOTE:

You guys know what is coming here.  Stop focusing on other posters.  Stop calling out "haters", "stans", etc. 

Feel free to quote people's posts and challenge their ideas.  This thread has been a mix of substantive pushback on some claims that were made the last few games and pointing fingers at other posters.  The former is fine; the latter is not.  

I don't have time to clean this up right now so please refocus the discussion exclusively on the basketball side of things and not on the posters themselves.  (Again, quoting a poster to address the substance of their post is fine.  Quoting the poster and saying "why aren't you here in this thread" is not.  Focus on the basketball not the poster.)

[Spud2nique]

I missed the game but just saw the score. I can’t watch this game can I? Was there anything good I may miss by not watching? Wow.

[JayBirdHawk]

Just now, Spud2nique said:

I missed the game but just saw the score. I can’t watch this game can I? Was there anything good I may miss by not watching? Wow.

Kobe.

[sturt]

10 hours ago, bleachkit said:

We're just tired and emotionally spent. 

 

[kg01]

58 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Expect more of the same over the next 23 games.  

Just not a fun season, this only makes it worse.

The real frustration of the season is just how low the actual bar is.  Being a .500 team, maybe just a bit better, likely nets you a top-6 seed this year.

I know what the records are rn.  My point is, with the teams that are currently falling, our typical mid-ness of the past 2 years would've likely allowed us to elevate.

Sadly, we can't take advantage.  And haven't been able to take advantage all year.

If we can just get a passable frontcourt for next year, we'll be surprised how far that will go to helping us. 

It's like we're tied to the bottom of the lake and can only swim to get our nose within an inch of the surface.  But, instead of puttin in the work, some folks want us to just let ourselves drown. 

We're closer than we even know.

[JayBirdHawk]

12 hours ago, givemesome1ce1 said:

Quin needs to play Jalen at center more and more five-out because it’s the only way we are going to get more consistent offense.

In order for this to be really effective, we'd need our forwards to be more effective....but wait we lack real forward depth....Hunter and Bey and Wes?....Bogi? Then that just makes us a really small team. Then on defense...really small for rim protection and rebounding.

This is where Muscala can help with a 5 out offense.

[Nash]

11 hours ago, JTB said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

look at all of these asinine comments just two days ago vs the jazz (another bad team like the nets) and now complete silence after getting our ass beat by a bad nets team in another game Trae did not play in.
 

At least Terrell stepped up and said yeah we just ass on defense with or without Trae…which been the case all season long.

Yup well I sure do hope one of haters wake up and say something. 

I am not a Trae hater and I don't know how you came up with that. Trae is the the best player and the only star player on this team. I just don't see anything good with Trae and DJM playing together. As far as the last night's loss no Trae's of this world would help there. When the opposing team hits 22 3's on 48% you usually lose that game no matter what. Also winning on the road was never easy. The other thing is the time required for the team to gel. We need to see more games to draw any conclusion. C position has atrocious players that need to be upgraded. 9 rebounds between 2 C in 40min is just sad and JJ is not ready to play 5 at small lineup yet. Quin is asking too much from the guy at the moment

[JayBirdHawk]

9 minutes ago, kg01 said:

The real frustration of the season is just how low the actual bar is.  Being a .500 team, maybe just a bit better, likely nets you a top-6 seed this year.

I know what the records are rn.  My point is, with the teams that are currently falling, our typical mid-ness of the past 2 years would've likely allowed us to elevate.

Sadly, we can't take advantage.  And haven't been able to take advantage all year.

If we can just get a passable frontcourt for next year, we'll be surprised how far that will go to helping us. 

It's like we're tied to the bottom of the lake and can only swim to get our nose within an inch of the surface.  But, instead of puttin in the work, some folks want us to just let ourselves drown. 

We're closer than we even know.

This goes back directly to ownership. Misplaced expectations on 'not being a play-in team' but tied the FOs hands thereby not providing the necessary tools to the coach.  You can't keep selling off talent with the primary focus being to cut cost and not replace the oncourt production and expect miracles.  

[AHF]

The big question with whether we can be better without Trae is whether our defense can improve enough to overcome the drop in offense.

This season, in the 51 games with Trae the Hawks have a 120 ORTG and average 122.1 points.  In the 8 games without Trae, the Hawks have a 114.3 ORTG and average 112.3 points.  If you buy into these numbers (granting SSS), are we more than 10 points better on defense without him?  (As an aside, I buy into them more than I usually would since they are consistent with the drop in our offensive production over the course of his career when he is out.)

120 ORTG would be #4 in the league.

114.3 ORTG would be #20 in the league.

[macdaddy]

Missed the game.  I assume Trae came back based on the number of points we gave up?

My fear for next season is we're going to rely on Bufkin, Gueye or even AJ for our rotation and it'll be another development year.  I love those guys but just like with JJ there's a difference between being a really promising player and a starter on a contender.  it takes a couple years to get there.

[JayBirdHawk]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

The big question with whether we can be better without Trae is whether our defense can improve enough to overcome the drop in offense.

[JeffS17]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

The big question with whether we can be better without Trae is whether our defense can improve enough to overcome the drop in offense.

This season, the Hawks with Trae have a 120 ORTG and average 122.1 points.  Without Trae, the Hawks have a 114.3 ORTG and average 112.3 points.  If you buy into these numbers (granting SSS), are we more than 10 points better on defense without him?  (As an aside, I buy into them more than I usually would since they are consistent with the drop in our offensive production over the course of his career when he is out.)

120 ORTG would be #4 in the league.

114.3 ORTG would be #20 in the league.

This is using historical stats though.  That means you're comparing a roster that is severely underfunded to one that is competently funded.  The real question is how much better is your defense, and how much offensive impact loss can you make up with that $40M worth of assets in place of Trae.  

Teams being worse with their best player and $40M on the bench, injured, is a non-discussion.  Of course we are worse lol

[AHF]

1 minute ago, JeffS17 said:

This is using historical stats though.  That means you're comparing a roster that is severely underfunded to one that is competently funded.  The real question is how much better is your defense, and how much offensive impact loss can you make up with that $40M worth of assets in place of Trae.  

Teams being worse with their best player and $40M on the bench, injured, is a non-discussion.  Of course we are worse lol

We had lots of claims that the team is / would be better this season without Trae over the last week.  I think this is a no-brainer but this is what it turns on.

Evaluating whether it makes sense to trade Trae is another (IMO much more sane) topic.  I don't think there is a way to evaluate that from the numbers.

[JayBirdHawk]

5 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Missed the game.  I assume Trae came back based on the number of points we gave up?

My fear for next season is we're going to rely on Bufkin, Gueye or even AJ for our rotation and it'll be another development year.  I love those guys but just like with JJ there's a difference between being a really promising player and a starter on a contender.  it takes a couple years to get there.

These young guys on rookie deals need to be supplemented by these kind of players with real NBA talent:

 

 

[JeffS17]

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

We had lots of claims that the team is / would be better this season without Trae over the last week.

Ah, sorry, nevermind then -- have not been keeping up lately.  

[JayBirdHawk]

5 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

The real question is how much better is your defense, and how much offensive impact loss can you make up with that $40M worth of assets in place of Trae.  

1. You're not getting back $40 mil in comparable on court talent/assests for Trae. You'll most likely be getting back more expiring salary filler than actual talent. [If it's to SAS for our picks back (which I think is fools gold), they are under the salary cap so no matching salary required. Keldon Johnson and picks back isn't an on court upgrade]. $40 mil back still leaves us with the same salary concerns. Will Ressler then even approach the tax if the stands are empty with his cash cow elsewhere?

[And like I noted previously, the DJ deadline trade was about getting an expiring contract and picks. There is no immediate ON COURT upgrade.]

2. The Picks, yes. But how quickly will they be real contributors on this team to make us better immediately. The Huerter pick from 2 years ago is nowhere close to helping us on the court.

3. We'd need to parlay that pick package to immediate ON COURT help or again, we'll be circling the wagon and doing the same thing over and over.

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Ah, sorry, nevermind then -- have not been keeping up lately.  

Kind of a "defense is so much better without him, the ball moves better without him...we are a better team without him" type of thing.

On the trade side, I think the best we can do is see how we perform without Trae the remainder of his absence and then think about where hypothetical trades would put us.  Speculation is unavoidable.  

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

1. You're not getting back $40 mil in comparable on court talent/assests for Trae. You'll most likely be getting back more expiring salary filler than actual talent. [If it's to SAS for our picks back (which I think is fools gold), they are under the salary cap so no matching salary required. Keldon Johnson and picks back isn't an on court upgrade]. $40 mil back still leaves us with the same salary concerns. Will Ressler then even approach the tax if the stands are empty with his cash cow elsewhere?

[And like I noted previously, the DJ deadline trade was about getting an expiring contract and picks. There is no immediate ON COURT upgrade.]

2. The Picks, yes. But how quickly will they be real contributors on this team to make us better immediately. The Huerter pick from 2 years ago is nowhere close to helping us on the court.

3. We'd need to parlay that pick package to immediate ON COURT help or again, we'll be circling the wagon and doing the same thing over and over.

This is why you have to look at hypothetical trades and then do your best guess on how that pays out.

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Kobe.

Did our young Pippen do anything? I put it on just to watch a bit but not the whole thing. lol. I need a peek wut!