Official Game Thread: Hawks at Nets Part 1

[Final_quest]

Someone said Trae creates more points per minute than any player in league history.  He creates a lot of pressure.  

Also, I think those 50 win Nique teams had an underrated supporting cast for that era.  Doc Rivers, Kevin Willis, and bringing Antoine Carr, Cliff Levingston, and John Battle off the bench.  They had a lot of beef on the front line which was key during the late 80’s.
 

 

 

[Vol4ever]

20 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

I'm gonna make a serious case that the Hawks looked better under Nate McMillan.  This is a overall statement about the entire season,  both with and without Trae Young in the lineup.  This team looks horrible. No excuse for Quin and that superstaff over there having the Hawks looking like this.  I get that the team doesn't have a bunch of shooters, but they can't run plays on offense OR play defense?

 

I'm highly disappointed in Quinn.   Nate is a much better coach.   That move was a mistake.  

[REHawksFan]

2 hours ago, Final_quest said:

Milwaukee is playing both their late first round picks from the past two years in their rotation.  There’s nothing wrong with playing rookies and sophomores.  

I went back and looked because this has frustrated me in recent years.  Since the JC draft in 2017:

Collins: Rookie - 74 games, 1785 Min, 24min/gm / 2nd year - 61 games, 1829 min, 30min/gm

Trae: Rookie - 81 games, 2503 min, 31min/gm / 2nd yr - 65 games, 2120 min, 35min/gm

Huerter: Rookie - 74 games, 2048 min, 27min/gm / 2nd yr - 56 games, 1760 min, 31min/gm

Spellman: Rookie - 46 games, 805 min, 17.5min/gm / 2nd yr - GONE

Hunter: Rookie - 63 games, 2018 min, 32min/gm / 2nd yr - 23 games (injuries), 678 min

Reddish: Rookie - 58 games, 1551 min, 27min/gm / 2nd yr - 26 games, 750 min

OO: Rookie - 50 games, 601 min, 12min/gm / 2nd yr - 48 games, 992 min, 21min/gm

Mays: Rookie - 33 games, 226 min, 8.2min/gm / 2nd yr - 28 games, 220 min, 8min/gm

JJ: Rookie - 22 games, 120 min, 5.5min/gm / 2nd yr - 70 games, 1042 min, 14.9min/gm

Sharife: - Rookie - 13 games, 39 min, 3.0min/gm / 2nd yr - GONE

AJ: Rookie - 72 games, 1401 min, 19.5min/gm / 2nd yr - 18 games, 132 min, 7.3min/gm

Kobe: Rookie - 8 games, 75 min, 9.4min/gm

Lundy: Rookie - 9 game, 52 min, 5.8min/gm

 

So JC, Trae, Hunter, and Reddish all played a min of 1,500 minutes as rookies.  No one else other than AJ comes close.  A lot can be attributed to injuries and / or lower draft picks that weren't NBA ready.  It's frustrating seeing other franchises like the Heat play their young players and see them develop while our seemingly talented players either sit on the bench or play in CP.  

[kg01]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

You think Dominique Wilkins puts as much pressure on a defense as Trae Young? 

Let me pull up a chair for this shit

I'll give you a preview: Dominique dunked hard.  

[Final_quest]

28 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

I went back and looked because this has frustrated me in recent years.  Since the JC draft in 2017:

Collins: Rookie - 74 games, 1785 Min, 24min/gm / 2nd year - 61 games, 1829 min, 30min/gm

Trae: Rookie - 81 games, 2503 min, 31min/gm / 2nd yr - 65 games, 2120 min, 35min/gm

Huerter: Rookie - 74 games, 2048 min, 27min/gm / 2nd yr - 56 games, 1760 min, 31min/gm

Spellman: Rookie - 46 games, 805 min, 17.5min/gm / 2nd yr - GONE

Hunter: Rookie - 63 games, 2018 min, 32min/gm / 2nd yr - 23 games (injuries), 678 min

Reddish: Rookie - 58 games, 1551 min, 27min/gm / 2nd yr - 26 games, 750 min

OO: Rookie - 50 games, 601 min, 12min/gm / 2nd yr - 48 games, 992 min, 21min/gm

Mays: Rookie - 33 games, 226 min, 8.2min/gm / 2nd yr - 28 games, 220 min, 8min/gm

JJ: Rookie - 22 games, 120 min, 5.5min/gm / 2nd yr - 70 games, 1042 min, 14.9min/gm

Sharife: - Rookie - 13 games, 39 min, 3.0min/gm / 2nd yr - GONE

AJ: Rookie - 72 games, 1401 min, 19.5min/gm / 2nd yr - 18 games, 132 min, 7.3min/gm

Kobe: Rookie - 8 games, 75 min, 9.4min/gm

Lundy: Rookie - 9 game, 52 min, 5.8min/gm

 

So JC, Trae, Hunter, and Reddish all played a min of 1,500 minutes as rookies.  No one else other than AJ comes close.  A lot can be attributed to injuries and / or lower draft picks that weren't NBA ready.  It's frustrating seeing other franchises like the Heat play their young players and see them develop while our seemingly talented players either sit on the bench or play in CP.  

I hear you, but we’ve actually had a nice run of first round picks.  Every draft pick we’ve made through Jalen has started for the teams they are on.  Would like to see a chart on how many teams have drafted that well.  

Also, on one hand I’m saying good teams can play rookies and/or sophomores.  On the other hand I think people get too hung up on how much we are playing rookies.  Just like Jalen was worth the wait we might find the same for AJ, Kobe, etc.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

Someone said Trae creates more points per minute than any player in league history.  He creates a lot of pressure.  

Also, I think those 50 win Nique teams had an underrated supporting cast for that era.  Doc Rivers, Kevin Willis, and bringing Antoine Carr, Cliff Levingston, and John Battle off the bench.  They had a lot of beef on the front line which was key during the late 80’s.
 

Moses Malone, Mookie, Plastic Man, Reggie Theus, Tree Rollins, etc.

Nique had some quality teammates over the years.  Willis was both an All-Star and All-NBA with Nique.  Moses was also an All-Star in Atlanta.  Mookie was an All-Star with Nique (before.....).  Trae has never had anyone get consideration for the All-Star game.

But other than acknowledging that Nique wasn't alone and had some nice teammates, it is worth pointing out that neither Nique nor Trae have enjoyed the kind of support from the rest of the roster that guys like LeBron, MJ, Bird, Curry, Tatum, Stockton, KG, etc. enjoyed.  I wish we could have seen a season where Nique had been able to have the luxury of support we saw those guys have with McHale, Ainge, Chief, etc. or KD, Klay, Green, etc. or Pippen, HoGrant/Rodman, etc. or Wade, Bosh, etc.  or Kobe or Kawhi or Karl or Kareem, etc.

All these champs had teammates that were HOFers beside them (some of whom put up huge numbers on their own).  Nique peaked with bottom of the barrell All-Star support.  The peak of Trae's teammates is far short of that.  How many rings would Bird have if the best guy he played with was a past his prime Moses?  How many would Curry have if his best teammate was CC?  

It takes more than a single player to win a ring no matter how good that player is.

[NBASupes]

I don't know how many times I said this when Nate was here but he's a pretty good RS coach in terms of getting the most out of his squads for a HC

[NBASupes]

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

Moses Malone, Mookie, Plastic Man, Reggie Theus, Tree Rollins, etc.

Nique had some quality teammates over the years.  Willis was both an All-Star and All-NBA with Nique.  Moses was also an All-Star in Atlanta.  Mookie was an All-Star with Nique (before.....).  Trae has never had anyone get consideration for the All-Star game.

But other than acknowledging that Nique wasn't alone and had some nice teammates, it is worth pointing out that neither Nique nor Trae have enjoyed the kind of support from the rest of the roster that guys like LeBron, MJ, Bird, Curry, Tatum, Stockton, KG, etc. enjoyed.  I wish we could have seen a season where Nique had been able to have the luxury of support we saw those guys have with McHale, Ainge, Chief, etc. or KD, Klay, Green, etc. or Pippen, HoGrant/Rodman, etc. or Wade, Bosh, etc.  or Kobe or Kawhi or Karl or Kareem, etc.

All these champs had teammates that were HOFers beside them (some of whom put up huge numbers on their own).  Nique peaked with bottom of the barrell All-Star support.  The peak of Trae's teammates is far short of that.  How many rings would Bird have if the best guy he played with was a past his prime Moses?  How many would Curry have if his best teammate was CC?  

It takes more than a single player to win a ring no matter how good that player is.

Trae best is Murray who pretty good but they play the same damn position and get in each other way on offense at times. Trae most impactful is Prime Clint and that was for one season. He's been sliding downwards since that year. 

Edited March 1 by NBASupes

[Jody23]

2 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

Dominique carried the Hawks to FOUR straight 50 wins season by himself with zero help outside of Doc Rivers who wasn't a big time scorer.  He went up against Jordan's Bulls, Bird's Celtics, and Isiah's Pistons.  You think Trae would've beat any of those teams? And Trae HAS HELP compared to Dominique having zero help.  Murray averaging 20 points.  Collins damn near 20 points before Capela phased him out of the offense, then you got guys scoring in the mid to high teens like Hunter, Bogi, etc.   Dominique carried FOUR straight Hawks teams to 50s win by his lonesome in a rugged Eastern Conference.  Any of them players from the 80s would tell you that Nique is a waay better player than Trae.  Its not even a discussion. Heck, Trae ain't even the best shooter on his current team, Bogi and Griffin WAS until he went Mark Jackson. Trae is a better SCORER than those two players but not a better shooter than either one.

 

Strong disagree with the notion Nique didn't have any help.  Over the course of his tenure, he had Moses Malone, Kevin Willis, Tree Rollins, Spud, Theus, Carr (Big Dog), John Battle, Mookie Blaylock, Augmon, and the list goes on.  I'm not saying he had the absolute best, but his supporting casts top ANYTHING Trae has had.

 

Nevermind.  AHF beat me too it and represented.

[NBASupes]

Trae's supporting cast have had promise but JC who seemed like he was going to be a top 50 player and did eventually become an excellent player just seem to hit his peak and once that finger issue happened. It really was hard for him to be effective and his contract wasn't good. He was supposed to be Trae's Amare and while JC struggled to produce in the playoffs the year we went to the ECF, he was very impactful and it showed in numerous ways. Honestly, JC injury plus contract killed us to a degree. JJ did eventually replace JC but he's not as good as JC was at his peak but he has more upside we all truly believe. 

Kevin was suppose to be the next Klay but defensively, Trae never worked with him and offensively, it was hit or miss. He did take off in terms of impact with Sacramento with Sabonis but he really hasn't been the next Klay as we all hoped during that time period. 

While Dre lived up to my expectations, it's clear he didn't live up to the fanbase expectations or even the Hawk organization. 

A lot of our regression just really points to Capela regression and OO can't replace him, especially on offense. Capela is far more limited but he's was a good helper, elite movement big, and used to set good screens. 

Edited March 1 by NBASupes

[Hawkmoor]

2 hours ago, Vol4ever said:

I'm highly disappointed in Quinn.   Nate is a much better coach.   That move was a mistake.  

A VERY surprising mistake.  I was for Quin coming here and called for it numerous times.  Dude is a fake.  He has the look and the stare but is not a head coach.  You can watch ANY other random NBA game and see plays being run, see the schemes, see what a team is trying to do to you.  With the Hawks its just the same thing over and over: spread the wings and let either Trae or Murray go one on one or take it into the trees. You don't have to have great shooters if you have a scheme that keeps the defense on its heels.  Players can get in a flow, even bad shooters, when the scheme works. Not saying a team of not great shooters can win consistently, but they don't look THIS bad either.

Edited March 2 by Hawkmoor

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[Hawkmoor]

1 hour ago, Jody23 said:

Strong disagree with the notion Nique didn't have any help.  Over the course of his tenure, he had Moses Malone, Kevin Willis, Tree Rollins, Spud, Theus, Carr (Big Dog), John Battle, Mookie Blaylock, Augmon, and the list goes on.  I'm not saying he had the absolute best, but his supporting casts top ANYTHING Trae has had.

 

Nevermind.  AHF beat me too it and represented.

You mean that chemistry disaster that lasted TWO seasons with Theus (a hot dog) and the black hole called Malone that lasted three seasons and destroyed any sense of chemistry the Hawks had.  That duo lead to that Hawks 80s team's downfall.  I get why the Hawks management wanted them. Conceivably Theus was supposed to be a upgrade over Randy Wittman and Malone was supposed to be the scorer that Tree Rollins never was. 

Boston Celtics players to this day talk about how Dominique never had help in Atlanta.  At times they would say "the right thing" on camera but they knew otherwise.  Blaylock played I believe half a season with Nique and Augmon never played with him (correction, half a season because it was the year Wilkins tore his Achilles).  Antoine Carr, John Battle, they were scrubs compared to what Bird, Jordan, Magic and Isiah had going on.  Spud.  Get real.  Willis is the only legit debate and even he wasn't on the level of what the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls and Pistons could throw at you.  They were good players but not prime time players.  I remember reading a article where Dominique and Mike Fratello were asked why Fratello leaned on Nique soo much in big moments and it was said that the other players DIDN'T WANT THE BALL in big moments, that they were fine with Nique being the guy.  Thats why that team never got over the hump against the big boys.

Edited March 2 by Hawkmoor

[Jody23]

10 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

You mean that chemistry disaster that lasted TWO seasons with Theus (a hot dog) and the black hole called Malone that lasted three seasons and destroyed any sense of chemistry the Hawks had.  That duo lead to that Hawks 80s team's downfall.  I get why the Hawks management wanted them. Conceivably Theus was supposed to be a upgrade over Randy Wittman and Malone was supposed to be the scorer that Tree Rollins never was. 

Boston Celtics players to this day talk about how Dominique never had help in Atlanta.  Blaylock played I believe half a season with Nique and Augmon never played with him (correction, half a season because it was the year Wilkins tore his Achilles).  Antoine Carr, John Battle, they were scrubs compared to what Bird, Jordan, Magic and Isiah had going on.  Spud.  Get real.  Willis is the only legit debate and even he wasn't on the level of what the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls and Pistons could throw at you.  They were good players but not prime time players.  I remember reading a article where Dominique and Mike Fratello were asked why Fratello leaned on Nique soo much in big moments and it was said that the other players DIDN'T WANT THE BALL in big moments, that they were fine with Nique being the guy.  Thats why that team never got over the hump against the big boys.

You said alot here.  And none of it changes the fact that Dominique did NOT carry those teams by himself.  Nobody was arguing that Dominique had the same support as Bird, Magic, Jordan, Thomas, etc.  He clearly didn't.  The statement was made that Trae somehow has help compared to Dominique having zero which just isn't the case.  It also doesn't change the fact that Trae led a team to the ECF and could have had a chance to win if not for the injury.  I love Nique, but he never led the team that far and yes, he had more help than Trae ever has.

[Hawkmoor]

31 minutes ago, Jody23 said:

You said alot here.  And none of it changes the fact that Dominique did NOT carry those teams by himself.  Nobody was arguing that Dominique had the same support as Bird, Magic, Jordan, Thomas, etc.  He clearly didn't.  The statement was made that Trae somehow has help compared to Dominique having zero which just isn't the case.  It also doesn't change the fact that Trae led a team to the ECF and could have had a chance to win if not for the injury.  I love Nique, but he never led the team that far and yes, he had more help than Trae ever has.

Collins,Bogi, Gallinari, Snell, Capela, Hill, a young Okongwu who was showing signs, Huerter, Hunter, Reddish (at times), come on dude.  The Hawks had one of the deepest rosters in the league.  This has to stop.  Travis built a monster and the problem was you was gonna have to pay folks and that was one of the issues that got him out of Atlanta because Ressler wasn't having it.

The other factor is Trae, Lillard or whatever his name is, they wouldn't have the success they have now back in the 1980s because it was a completely different, PHYSICAL game.  Guards didn't go into the lane.  They just didn't do it.  You had to be a physical guard back then.  The point guards were physical pure point guards who had to be able to shoot over the defense if they were a scorer which most were not.  The two guard was the guy back then and he had to be lights out.  Nobody is gonna change those facts.  Spud Webb was a bench sideshow who would dunk on fast breaks.  

Look at this picture of Jordan in the lane.  Jordan was 6'6" tall.  EVERY team had a enforcer.  It was like a hockey game.  The Pistons entire team were enforcers.  There wasn't gonna be any Trae Young pick and rolls and floaters in the lane.  Nique couldn't be stopped inside.  Thats how the game was played. You HAD to be physical.  And this Jordan vs Lebron discussion fiasco they keep running in the media needs to stop while I'm at it.   Jordan and Nique, Bird, using these rules today would average in the 40 point range.

Edited March 2 by Hawkmoor

[kg01]

I blame yall for entertaining nonsense. 

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Hawkmoor said:

Collins,Bogi, Gallinari, Snell, Capela, Hill, a young Okongwu who was showing signs, Huerter, Hunter, Reddish (at times), come on dude.  The Hawks had one of the deepest rosters in the league.  This has to stop.  Travis built a monster and the problem was you was gonna have to pay folks and that was one of the issues that got him out of Atlanta because Ressler wasn't having it.

The other factor is Trae, Lillard or whatever his name is, they wouldn't have the success they have now back in the 1980s because it was a completely different, PHYSICAL game.  Guards didn't go into the lane.  They just didn't do it.  You had to be a physical guard back then.  The point guards were physical pure point guards who had to be able to shoot over the defense if they were a scorer which most were not.  The two guard was the guy back then and he had to be lights out.  Nobody is gonna change those facts.  Spud Webb was a bench sideshow who would dunk on fast breaks.  

Look at this picture of Jordan in the lane.  Jordan was 6'6" tall.  EVERY team had a enforcer.  It was like a hockey game.  The Pistons entire team were enforcers.  There wasn't gonna be any Trae Young pick and rolls and floaters in the lane.  Nique couldn't be stopped inside.  Thats how the game was played. You HAD to be physical.  And this Jordan vs Lebron discussion fiasco they keep running in the media needs to stop while I'm at it.   Jordan and Nique, Bird, using these rules today would average in the 40 point range.

They were deep. That's true. That's the biggest reason why we were winning. That and having prime Capela. 

The game wasn't that damn physical. Every team wasn't the Detroit Pistons. Come on, you are starting to overrate the 80s. You doing that thing I hate from MJ stans. That nostalgia bullshit. I hate it. Be honest, don't buy into folklore. We have full games all over YouTube. 

I track just about everything. Anyone thinking Nique puts pressure as much on a defense as Trae who maybe the GOAT at just driving a defense insane due to his playmaking and drives into the heart of a defense has lost every part of his damn mind. 

Edited March 2 by NBASupes

[givemesome1ce1]

2 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

Collins,Bogi, Gallinari, Snell, Capela, Hill, a young Okongwu who was showing signs, Huerter, Hunter, Reddish (at times), come on dude.

Bogi was literally injured for half of the games we were playing during the ECF run. Solomon Hill was terrible and barely did anything. Tony Snell was a body. Hunter literally played the first round and was done for the rest of the series. Collins was fine and okay as a defender. Huerter was okay but was a bad defender for most of the run. Gallinari was bad on defense but was a good scorer. Cam Reddish was literally useless until garbage time in Game 6 of the ECF. Capela was arguably the most talented because of his defense but he couldn’t do anything offensively without anyone spoon feeding him the ball.
Okongwu was a rookie who was playing with a torn shoulder muscle. (He played great defense though).

Why are we acting like Trae played with a bunch of hall of famers when a third of the players are basically out of the NBA and another are third bench guys for other teams. Trae carried a bunch of 6th men to the ECF and people act like it’s nothing lol 

[Atlantaholic]

8 hours ago, Final_quest said:

Someone said Trae creates more points per minute than any player in league history.  He creates a lot of pressure.  

Also, I think those 50 win Nique teams had an underrated supporting cast for that era.  Doc Rivers, Kevin Willis, and bringing Antoine Carr, Cliff Levingston, and John Battle off the bench.  They had a lot of beef on the front line which was key during the late 80’s.
 

 

 

They were very solid, but that wasn't getting past the Celtics. 

[Atlantaholic]

1 hour ago, givemesome1ce1 said:

Bogi was literally injured for half of the games we were playing during the ECF run. Solomon Hill was terrible and barely did anything. Tony Snell was a body. Hunter literally played the first round and was done for the rest of the series. Collins was fine and okay as a defender. Huerter was okay but was a bad defender for most of the run. Gallinari was bad on defense but was a good scorer. Cam Reddish was literally useless until garbage time in Game 6 of the ECF. Capela was arguably the most talented because of his defense but he couldn’t do anything offensively without anyone spoon feeding him the ball.
Okongwu was a rookie who was playing with a torn shoulder muscle. (He played great defense though).

Why are we acting like Trae played with a bunch of hall of famers when a third of the players are basically out of the NBA and another are third bench guys for other teams. Trae carried a bunch of 6th men to the ECF and people act like it’s nothing lol 

I don't disagree with your thesis, but both Cap an Collins deserve credit, especially Cap was freaking amazing defensively that season. and also Gallo when he was getting it going was a bucket and Bogi had an epic stretch. It was a really really good team around Trae.