Official Game Thread: Hawks at Nets Part 1

[REHawksFan]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

The big question with whether we can be better without Trae is whether our defense can improve enough to overcome the drop in offense.

This season, in the 51 games with Trae the Hawks have a 120 ORTG and average 122.1 points.  In the 8 games without Trae, the Hawks have a 114.3 ORTG and average 112.3 points.  If you buy into these numbers (granting SSS), are we more than 10 points better on defense without him?  (As an aside, I buy into them more than I usually would since they are consistent with the drop in our offensive production over the course of his career when he is out.)

120 ORTG would be #4 in the league.

114.3 ORTG would be #20 in the league.

This season (only 8 games), the Hawks are 9 points better defensively in games Trae misses.  115 pt/gm allowed without Trae vs 124 pt/gm with Trae.  So the Net is +1 with Trae (ie the pt diff is -3 without Trae and -2 with Trae).  Not sure how it equates per100 poss as I didn't look at that.  

For me the question is and always has been: 

Which is better for the organization:  A. Trae plus whatever return DJM gets you; or B. DJM plus whatever return Trae gets you.  

My answer to those options is A is best because I think Trae's offense is more superior to DJM offensively than DJM's defense is superior to Trae's.  I also think the difference there is greater than the difference between the returns for each player (Trae would warrant a higher return but not so much that it blows the return for DJM out of the water). 

So for me, I don't want to give up the best offensive player in franchise history and a legit top 10-15 offensive player in the current NBA. I'd rather keep trying to build defense that fits around Trae.  I get it.  It hasn't worked yet, but I also don't think they've had a great plan yet.  Or at least they haven't implemented the plan well yet.  

[Spud2nique]

Who’s that moron yelling in the background. STFUUUUU THE MIC IS ON . Was that an assistant coach or an annoying a$$ fan? Damn I couldn’t stop hearing him direct the offense and defense.  

[kg01]

15 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Did our young Pippen do anything? I put it on just to watch a bit but not the whole thing. lol. I need a peek wut!  

Not enough to justify going out of your way to watch, jmho.  Had some moments tho. 

[NBASupes]

37 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

This season (only 8 games), the Hawks are 9 points better defensively in games Trae misses.  115 pt/gm allowed without Trae vs 124 pt/gm with Trae.  So the Net is +1 with Trae (ie the pt diff is -3 without Trae and -2 with Trae).  Not sure how it equates per100 poss as I didn't look at that.  

For me the question is and always has been: 

Which is better for the organization:  A. Trae plus whatever return DJM gets you; or B. DJM plus whatever return Trae gets you.  

My answer to those options is A is best because I think Trae's offense is more superior to DJM offensively than DJM's defense is superior to Trae's.  I also think the difference there is greater than the difference between the returns for each player (Trae would warrant a higher return but not so much that it blows the return for DJM out of the water). 

So for me, I don't want to give up the best offensive player in franchise history and a legit top 10-15 offensive player in the current NBA. I'd rather keep trying to build defense that fits around Trae.  I get it.  It hasn't worked yet, but I also don't think they've had a great plan yet.  Or at least they haven't implemented the plan well yet.  

I think Trae is a +30 impact and Murray as a starting PG is a +35 impact on wins. The difference is, 

Murray as a PG is a +25 and a +10 on defense. 

As a SG, he's still a +25 but he's a +5 on D. 

At times with Trae, Murray can feel like a +25 on O and a 0 or even a -5 on D which makes it feel like he has regressed. 

Trae is a +50 on offense and he's a +60 on the ball offensively. That's massively significant. His on-ball value is more than twice as much as DJ's overall offensive value. 

Defense is Trae's killer as well as off-ball offense. 

Truth is, as long as our best players impact-wise is a +30, we are going to be winning anytime soon. 

Long gone are the +40 and +45 days of Capela mainly due to Trae and James' impact on his game. 

Until we fix that center spot, we stuck in mud with this squad. 

 

Edited March 1 by NBASupes

[JeffS17]

13 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I think Trae is a +30 impact and Murray as a starting PG is a +35 impact on wins. The difference is, 

Murray as a PG is a +25 and a +10 on defense. 

As a SG, he's still a +25 but he's a +5 on D. 

At times with Trae, Murray can feel like a +25 on O and a 0 or even a -5 on D which makes it feel like he has regressed. 

Trae is a +50 on offense and he's a +60 on the ball offensively. That's massively significant. His on-ball value is more than twice as much as DJ's overall offensive value. 

Defense is Trae's killer as well as off-ball offense. 

Truth is, as long as our best players impact-wise is a +30, we are going to be winning anytime soon. 

Long gone are the +40 and +45 days of Capela mainly due to Trae and James' impact on his game. 

Until we fix that center spot, we stuck in mud with this squad. 

 

what are these numbers

[NBASupes]

14 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

what are these numbers

Analysis using my impact grades. 

All time

MJ, Steph, and Jokic all have 65 win impact offensive grades. 

Defensively 

Rodman, Mutombo, Russell, and Gobert have + 20 win impact. 

That's the highest. 

Edited March 1 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

30 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I think Trae is a +30 impact and Murray as a starting PG is a +35 impact on wins. The difference is, 

Murray as a PG is a +25 and a +10 on defense. 

As a SG, he's still a +25 but he's a +5 on D. 

At times with Trae, Murray can feel like a +25 on O and a 0 or even a -5 on D which makes it feel like he has regressed. 

Trae is a +50 on offense and he's a +60 on the ball offensively. That's massively significant. His on-ball value is more than twice as much as DJ's overall offensive value. 

Defense is Trae's killer as well as off-ball offense. 

Truth is, as long as our best players impact-wise is a +30, we are going to be winning anytime soon. 

Long gone are the +40 and +45 days of Capela mainly due to Trae and James' impact on his game. 

Until we fix that center spot, we stuck in mud with this squad. 

 

Major error on Murray grades. I didn't account for other overall, just for guards. His offensive grade is higher than this and defensive grade is lower as well. Mistake on my end

Murray as a PG is a +35 and a +0 on defense. 

As a SG, he's still a +35 but he's a -5 on D. 

On ball 30, off ball 5. 

At times with Trae, Murray can feel like a +30 on O and a -10 or even a -15 on D which makes it feel like he has regressed. 

On ball 25, off ball 5

Trae's grade is correct. Murray one was massively off that's an error on me. 

[Final_quest]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

 

My fear for next season is we're going to rely on Bufkin, Gueye or even AJ for our rotation and it'll be another development year.  I love those guys but just like with JJ there's a difference between being a really promising player and a starter on a contender.  it takes a couple years to get there.

Milwaukee is playing both their late first round picks from the past two years in their rotation.  There’s nothing wrong with playing rookies and sophomores.  

[JayBirdHawk]

20 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Milwaukee is playing both their late first round picks from the past two years in their rotation.  There’s nothing wrong with playing rookies and sophomores.  

And the Hawks with their talent deficit aren't playing theirs.

(Granted injuries and other things played a role somewhat).

[Final_quest]

5 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

And the Hawks with their talent deficit aren't playing theirs.

(Granted injuries and other things played a role somewhat).

Injuries were huge.  Kobe was injured most of the year and I’m not sure if we’re allowed to know anything about AJ’s mental condition.  

[terrell]

11 hours ago, Jody23 said:

With as much available evidence as there is, it was always absurd to suggest the Hawks were better without Trae.  That said, the execution in this game was still atrocious.  Too much iso play on offense and poor execution and awareness defensively.  On to the next one !!!

 

15 hours ago, JTB said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

look at all of these asinine comments just two days ago vs the jazz (another bad team like the nets) and now complete silence after getting our ass beat by a bad nets team in another game Trae did not play in.
 

At least Terrell stepped up and said yeah we just ass on defense with or without Trae…which been the case all season long.

Yup well I sure do hope one of haters wake up and say something. 

Yeah, The team is bad with or without Trae Young, but there is no way ANY TEAM can be better defensively adding Trae Young to the mix..

So Im not going to pretend like Trae would have definitely turned this into a W. I will say though that we would have much more likely lost 124-114 than 124-97. lol

Btw, I think the argument for most has been that the Hawks would be better without Trae, and with a different $40 million player.  Or better without Murray and a better fit with Trae... Its either or for me........ One has to go IMO..... Never liked the fit...

I AM NOT among the Just Trade Trae people. However, if we can't recoup some of the SA picks or get a better team fit(#1 option like KAT, KD, etc) in a Murray deal,  I dont know where we go from here.....

Im fine with keeping Trae if someone convincingly suggests how we get a legit # 1 option type player to go with him......If we cant do that, Im ok with a complete rebuild....

 

[Gray Mule]

Sure, we all feel bad about this loss.  Hawks didn't defend the 3-point line and the Nets made them pay.  Hawks are really an offensive driven team, and the defense is just an added feature.  Atlanta didn't.  Check the box score.  See all those (-) beside many of the Hawk's names.  All you need to know.  If this Hawk team can't reach 100 points, then they can't win.  They didn't.

Ice cold shooting from the entire team.  Can't blame any one player.  It was a team effort (Or lack thereof) that buried them.  With or without Trae, makes no difference.  This Atlanta team got their donkey thrashed badly.  

[Hawkmoor]

3 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

 

So for me, I don't want to give up the best offensive player in franchise history and a legit top 10-15 offensive player in the current NBA. I'd rather keep trying to build defense that fits around Trae.  I get it.  It hasn't worked yet, but I also don't think they've had a great plan yet.  Or at least they haven't implemented the plan well yet.  

Woah. Slow down cowboy.  I was following you into you said THAT...Trae can be stopped.  Defenses double him in big moments and get the ball out of his hands. Dominique would destroy entire defenses.  You couldn't double or triple team him when he was on his game and Nique played when the game was physical, not this current powder puff stuff where they let guards get into the lane.  That wasn't happening when Nique played and old heads on this forum KNOW THAT to be true....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1 by Hawkmoor

[givemesome1ce1]

31 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

Woah. Slow down cowboy.  I was following you into you said THAT...Trae can be stopped.

Trae went to the Eastern Conference Finals…Dominique never did. 

[NBASupes]

39 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

Woah. Slow down cowboy.  I was following you into you said THAT...Trae can be stopped.  Defenses double him in big moments and get the ball out of his hands. Dominique would destroy entire defenses.  You couldn't double or triple team him when he was on his game and Nique played when the game was physical, not this current powder puff stuff where they let guards get into the lane.  That wasn't happening when Nique played and old heads on this forum KNOW THAT to be true....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nique didn't put anywhere near as much pressure on defenses as Trae does. Hardly anyone has who's played this game at this level. 

[Hawkmoor]

11 minutes ago, givemesome1ce1 said:

Trae went to the Eastern Conference Finals…Dominique never did. 

 

 

Dominique carried the Hawks to FOUR straight 50 wins season by himself with zero help outside of Doc Rivers who wasn't a big time scorer.  He went up against Jordan's Bulls, Bird's Celtics, and Isiah's Pistons.  You think Trae would've beat any of those teams? And Trae HAS HELP compared to Dominique having zero help.  Murray averaging 20 points.  Collins damn near 20 points before Capela phased him out of the offense, then you got guys scoring in the mid to high teens like Hunter, Bogi, etc.   Dominique carried FOUR straight Hawks teams to 50s win by his lonesome in a rugged Eastern Conference.  Any of them players from the 80s would tell you that Nique is a waay better player than Trae.  Its not even a discussion. Heck, Trae ain't even the best shooter on his current team, Bogi and Griffin WAS until he went Mark Jackson. Trae is a better SCORER than those two players but not a better shooter than either one.

 

Edited March 1 by Hawkmoor

[givemesome1ce1]

If you want to make the team better it’s pretty simple: trade Dejounte and Capela. Trading Dejounte ends the point guard stagger and we can be able to have defensive guards next to Trae all the time. This will fix our POA issues. Maybe we can get a wing at the three that shoot and defend (like Mikal Bridges).

 

Capela is always blocking the rim and makes the offense worse. His age is clearly showing and the minute we get a center that can just move out the way of the dunker spot, this offense AND defense will be better. Start Onyeka and this defense will be cooking.

 

Like look at these stats from PBP, Trae and Dejounte together are a net negative. Trae led offense is 3 points better than Dejounte. Why is Dejounte still here? We probably should’ve traded him last season. At this point, they have no choice but to trade him this offseason. Thank god they got him to sign that extension so DJ has more value. I don’t think this team is as cooked as people think it is, we just have to make the right moves.

 

 

[Hawkmoor]

10 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Nique didn't put anywhere near as much pressure on defenses as Trae does. Hardly anyone has who's played this game at this level. 

Brah...  These types of comments is why I don't post much.

Edited March 1 by Hawkmoor

[NBASupes]

Just now, givemesome1ce1 said:

If you want to make the team better it’s pretty simple: trade Dejounte and Capela. Trading Dejounte ends the point guard stagger and we can be able to have defensive guards next to Trae all the time. This will fix our POA issues. Maybe we can get a wing at the three that shoot and defend (like Mikal Bridges).

 

Capela is always blocking the rim and makes the offense worse. His age is clearly showing and the minute we get a center that can just move out the way of the dunker spot, this offense AND defense will be better. Start Onyeka and this defense will be cooking.

 

Like look at these stats from PBP, Trae and Dejounte together are a net negative. Trae led offense is 3 points better than Dejounte. Why is Dejounte still here? We probably should’ve traded him last season. At this point, they have no choice but to trade him this offseason. Thank god they got him to sign that extension so DJ has more value. I don’t think this team is as cooked as people think it is, we just have to make the right moves.

 

 

I think we all know this Murray/Trae marriage hasn't worked out and is running it's course. We all know Clint is washed but everyone else in the league does too and with his contract, we are sadly stuck with him but he's a great teammate, knows how to play the game so anyone we draft, he can mentor for a season. 

[NBASupes]

8 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

Brah...  These types of comments is why I don't post much.

You think Dominique Wilkins puts as much pressure on a defense as Trae Young? 

Let me pull up a chair for this shit